IF you ever come back to balance of Titan

[Iszh]

Sicne now we have a forum for balance this topic should go there. It is connected to the whole t3 land balance but atm it is the worst t3 case. No other t3 unit is such a shit. I still would like to have this rocket launcher to have a nice raiding unit. titan will be compared to loyalist:

Titan - loyalist
3300 life - 3100 life
100 dps + 100 dps rockets - 159 dps (weapon system alike mongoose rockets with 6s reload but splash)
20 range + 20 range - 25 range
shield - death stunn
150 turn rate - 120 turn rate
speed same

This would make titan a loyalist equal raid weapon with short range high maneuverability and speed. The problem atm is that they are losing even to t2 units. with higher dps it would be solved. More suggestions follow:

1.) higher dps with rocket launcher or simply gun dps
2.) range increase will automatically increase usable dps (but seems the more boring and not natural variant)

not much more ideas atm. I just know they are no option to rush t3 at all. That percial is the most strong weapon on t3 is no reason not to buff titan out from shadow but maybe a reason to nerf percival or to make a general new t3 balance. I ve heard the idea to remove the whole t3 in stats like it is closer down to t2 that sounds nice but before buff titan to its place in the uef army.

Edit:
Broken about t3 balance people tell is for example harbinger rush. Maybe thats not a general mistake but just a broken chain of units. Why people rush harbinger is that it is the first t3 unit which is really good vs t2 and lower. But should not be loyalist and titan be the first to rush? Maybe the chain up from t1 to t2 to t3 should look more like this:

t2->pillar->rhino->obsidian-ilshavoh->titan-Loyalist->Harbinger-ohtuum->Percival-Brick->Monkeylord etc.

So what i want to tell with this is that maybe the fact that harb rush is so op has simply the reason in the fact that titan and loyalists are not worth a t3 rush but that should be better. I think cybran with loyalist has a minor problem to stop harb rush if they get loyalists in time. But uef cant do a lot without percivals, harbinger will simply smash those weak t2 units and the percivals come later. I hope it was understandable what i want to describe here. I think if titan has more damage and partly splash damage so that they will win clearly over t2 alike loyalists they can be rushed and will be times better able to stop the first harbs compared to t2 shit. chain seems to be repaired. If aeon manages to rush harb before you have t3 thats not the fault of the aeon then. And to mention seraphim here i think that this tank needs a repairment. it is more slow than harb and cant reclaim so it should be maybe a unit between harb pery and brick. Here are needed good ideas how to bring it into the late game. For very late game sera has chicken and for anti t3 rush theri ilshavoh is completely enough. Maybe to bring this tank in the middle between harb and brick/percy. Mass cost range hp and the usual 400 dps. But the dps should be in the main gun and side guns maybe only 50 dps or so.

I mentioned this because i thought again over scaling t3 down closer to t2, that would f*** up the exp balance the t3 special units like arti and quite a lot more. Not sure if thats a good idea, better lets work with what we have. Scaling down t3 will also make t2 more useless and the jump to t3 has to be done even faster. In teamgames on land maps you can already hardly see t2 except mml.

Percial beeing op is the next point of t3 balance. It is the same op like uef battleship. But uef should stay the in the end overwhelming faction so i advise to delay this with simply increasing the cost of percival by 5-10%. Percival is not a game ender .... and aeon and sera still have sniper bots, their chicken and jesus to fight percival.

[Iszh]

Somebody has done it andit works! I will add it into my mod and try to do what i told before. The person who made it has done it in a way which is imba. My plan is to use it like mongoose as a copy of main weapon with differencet fire cycle and splash. No Range difference from normal weapon or something, but maybe a general range increase to 25 like loyalist would be fine. No Burn time and so just grenades like mongoose. Purpose is to increase dps slightly over cybran loyalist with both weapons together and to be able to stop first rush harbs in numbers but dont overwhelm them if they will be more. So cybran has nearly the same damage more precise and stunn and uef has bit more damage and small splash.

See here me and my baby

TITAN.jpg (152.7 KiB) Viewed 3320 times

[IceDreamer]

I did this for the balance research mod. Gave it the Mongoose's Grenades, basically made it into a fast, shielded, T3 hoplite. Worked very nicely imo.

Feel free to nick it and just lower the range.

[Iszh]

Thank you! But a hopplite that would be a medium range weapon. While watching all those units i have always in my mind a structure of this game and we should keep it somehow. Melee weapons, medium range and long range. Hopplite mongoose sniper bots and aurora are medium range. Arti different kind and mml are long range and so striker mantis rhino percival and so on are melee. In different tech levels the base range is increasing a lot. You will recognize that in the original game before rhino was buffed the system was like this, in a tech level with medium range you dont have stron melee unit. In tech levels without medium range you get mega strong melee unit and it is changing every tech level.

UEF-t1 no medium but striker tank - t2 medium range mongoose weak pillar - t3 no medium percival - t3 medium lr fatboy
AEon - t1 medium no melee - t2 no medium obsidian monster - t3 medium range sniper weaker harbinger - t4 melee koloss
cybran - same like uef - t4 weak melee monkey and medium mega
seraphim t1 and t2 no medium strong melee and arti. t3 medium range shitty melee unit - t4 melee chicken

medium range units are good for kiting enemies on all tech levels. On tech 3 this system is broken in my opinion because of to low life of medium range and long range units. All arti and snipers need 3-4k hp so they can resist a bit vs t3 arti. atm shields down snipers dead. Thats not ok. Titan is something like the mech marine of t3 and is for rushing t3 just for doing damage and maybe preventing a death to harbinger rush. Those rockets with splash even in short range will help to rape base down and to hit an evading harbinger.

[Ithilis_Quo]

You forgot on hover tanks.. thay are also units.. already the balance of hover tanks is terible.. but it dont need to be. and then:
T2
aeon weak hover medium range + stong melle,
uef weak non hover medium range + strong hoover melle
sera weak hover melle + strong hight range
cybran medium "hover" + medium non hover.

Every faction have something that is complemently parth of lego, only hover balance is so hard f*** up..

(but about buff titan, fully agre.)

[IceDreamer]

By all means Iszh, that's just my interpretation. Just take the unit and adjust the range/damage etc, it just makes it easy because all the technical stuff getting the aesthetics of the mongoose cannon rather than the missile launcher, which I prefer, working. You can do what you like with the balance

[Iszh]

Ithilis i thought hovers are out of this contest because they are special units and not mass efficient in land war (at least should not be, pillars for example have higher range and much more life for mass. All hovers are so called "melee" units of t2 ). I think there is a reason why there are no t3 hovers

Seraphim should have to fulfil the system a t1 medium range but instead they got the best arti. Just to create faction variations. But i personally even after 400 seton games over nearly 10 years think that hovers are not a problem, maybe it was intention that they belong to the usual picture of water fights. The point is with hover only you will not win a seabattle if your enemy is good. Without hover it might be much more difficult. So let them be part of seabattle. Cybran was balanced with insane frigate damage aa and over water. Use "a" -> attack button behind enemy units to win over hover because t1 ships use their range advantage. Frigates will stop and shoot at maximum range and it looks like a wall of ships the hovers cant pass. Maybe the weakness is the player control. people do not know how to use frigates to fight hovers. Often i meet this with asf. People do not know how to reset targets to get air advantage. Then they are complaining air battles are shit. Maybe simply watch the "s" like stop button closer thats your friend in air fights

[Ithilis_Quo]

every game is not setons..

on river typer water is hover insine OP

[Iszh]

Back to topic, i managed to add titan to my mod ... so funny. I left the napalm with very short burn time.

Min range of rockets is 16 max range is 25
main plasma gun got now 105 dps and 25 range
means it has overall 205 dps but you need to micro it.

I tested sandbox the unit seems to be fine win over loyalist with micro loyalist win over them with micro harbinger the same


All other changes are as usual not changing the game a lot but should increase the intuitiv game feeling.
Mod is called Iszh Balance V6
Here full changelog:

T2 Fighter Bomber Increased aa dps 260
T2 Fighter Bomber Increased speed 17
t2 Fighter Bomber Range increased by 5
t2 Janus Rate of fire increased 1.15 (for testing)
T3 Bomber decreased speed 16
t2 static aa guns stats like sera t3 sam
t3 sam got t2 aa gun splash
Summit eco increased 15%
Titan got rocket launcher with 100 DPS Napalm min range 16 max range 25
Titan Plasma gun reduced dps to 105 and got 25 range
Loyalist bolter dps double 30 to 60 new loyalist dps is 219
Sera Sniper bot got 3500 hp
Aeon sniper bot got 3900 hp
Othuum 50 dps less each side gun double fire rate for main gun same dps

I already found a bug with those rockets icedreamer, the laser of a monkeylord was not able to hit the titans anymore when the rocket spam was flying because it was hitting the rockets all the time. It is not dramatic since sooner or later the monkey won and in most cases this will not happen so extreme but better to solve this. Tomorrow i will simply reduce the rocket spam to 4 instead of 10 rockets that should already help.

[zeroAPM]

Try maybe to move them to the "sides"
Between the body and the arms like this

Only with less and bigger rockets though.