T3 mex upgrade and build price

[noobymcnoobcake]

The investment of a t3 ACU and a few t1 engies is not a significant investment from normal in multiplayer games.

In low rating games, where u sit in ur base, chillin and making eco, it might look like a no risk thing..
but if u are in a high rating game, with action all over the map, spending apm on rebuilding mex is risky..

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Is also absolutely laughable for anything but 1v1 play. Teamgames / Setons its a almost zero risk thing. It annoys me that people are defending this base / eco micro heavy and unintuitive un new player friendly mechanic. I really dont feel this sort of thing is what FAF should be about.

the gain is not "insignificant" in the slightest, when you can instantly re invest that into more eco, it matters.

You have still not responded to the idea of removing the infinite factory build que and limiting to 10 units max . In a low rating game quieing up units might look like a no risk thing..
but if u are in a high rating game, with action all over the map, spending apm on factory Que is risky - you are likely to lose tanks while doing this, offsetting the benefit of having more later

[Blodir]

Yea I think upgrades should add up to the total cost of the mex instead of t2->t3 upgrade having the same cost as building a new one. It's needlessly unintuitive... I know if you play gap or something it can be tough to find things to separate player skill since the skillcap is so low, so this slight added complexity seems necessary... I'm not judging. Also for the record most of the time I'm for added complexity, but in this case it's just outrageously silly. Not a huge deal for me, but yea it's dumb.

[UgaUgaMonkey]

It annoys me that people are defending this base / eco micro heavy and unintuitive un new player friendly mechanic. I really dont feel this sort of thing is what FAF should be about.

Since its release Supreme Commander was a non-casual rts game with very deep strategy fokus, hard eco and unfriendly to new players.

the gain is not "insignificant" in the slightest

i never said it is insignificant, i just mentioned, that u can gain/lose that mass in other ways. Therefore i posted the numbers.

You have still not responded to the idea of removing the infinite factory build que and limiting to 10 units max . In a low rating game quieing up units might look like a no risk thing..
but if u are in a high rating game, with action all over the map, spending apm on factory Que is risky

Cause it´s off topic... but if ur looking for my answer..

Spoiler: show

Limiting the factory que to 5/10 units would be a good thing. Once u have set que to infinite most times that que runs forever. With only a few units in que u would have to re-think what units u need next.. switching to better unit combos, or save that mass if u don´t really need units right now

But i disagree to ur view, that this is a risky think. You can easily mangage your factories via shortkeys, or select idle factories via mouse on the toolbar on the right, while your POV can be anywhere on the map and you don´t miss any action.

Yea I think upgrades should add up to the total cost of the mex instead of t2->t3 upgrade having the same cost as building a new one. It's needlessly unintuitive.

Adding up to the total cost would mean, that all "parts" (mass) of the old machine could be used for the new one.. that seems unintuitive to me.
Maybe there should be a cost reduce to the upgrade equal to the mass value of the reclaim (or a bit less).

The costs (or a part of it) of the T1 / T2 mex can be seen as development costs going t3 direkt should be cheaper than to make a detour over t1 / t2

[noobymcnoobcake]

Limiting the factory que to 5/10 units would be a good thing. Once u have set que to infinite most times that que runs forever. With only a few units in que u would have to re-think what units u need next.. switching to better unit combos, or save that mass if u don´t really need units right now

But i disagree to ur view, that this is a risky think. You can easily mangage your factories via shortkeys, or select idle factories via mouse on the toolbar on the right, while your POV can be anywhere on the map and you don´t miss any action.

So you took the bait. Supreme commander from a game design perspective has always been about removing UI limitations and making mechanics easier to enable you to enact strategy. Clearly mechanics (APM and ability to click fast / accurately) are still important but the power the UI has in supreme commander over other games like stacraft is huge - build templates and engineering assist orders and infinite build ques for some examples. You should go and play a very mechanics heavy game like starcraft brood war with a viewpoint like that, as far more of the skill is in the mechanics than strategy and APM is king.

Why dont you just stop playing with build ques above 10 and with no repeat? it would clearly make you a better player as you constantly adjust your unit mix to perfection.

[UgaUgaMonkey]

Well as it seems that you are just searching for things to blame me.. this will be my last reply here.

So you took the bait. Supreme commander from a game design perspective has always been about removing UI limitations and making mechanics easier to enable you to enact strategy. Clearly mechanics (APM and ability to click fast / accurately) are still important but the power the UI has in supreme commander over other games like stacraft is huge - build templates and engineering assist orders and infinite build ques for some examples. You should go and play a very mechanics heavy game like starcraft brood war with a viewpoint like that, as far more of the skill is in the mechanics than strategy and APM is king.

Dunno whats the bait here.. u asked for my opinion and u got it... but oh no i got baited..
Imo making infinite loop is just stupid spam and has nothing to do with strategy. Playing strategic would mean to react on enemy unit combo and try to do counter units.
And what would be the use of an infinite que in a game like BW without infinite res ? Que might spend ur last minerals, when ur mineral field is exhausted and u won´t be able to make a new expand.

Ofc Blizzard games are faster and apm is more important especially due to unit abillities. But even with overninethousand APM it will be hard to be "king", if u miss the strategy basics.. if u don´t have a proper bo on a map, with a good timing when u have to push (6-pool rush, proxi rax..) , or make the wrong units ( armor/attack types ).

As u said the important things in this games happen in apm-heavy combats.. so there´s no need for a "huge" ui with zoom over the whole map..
or infinite loop.. cause u just have 90 / 200 food / supply
or complex build templates.. cause u don´t have a adjacency bonus for building.. or walls for your point defences.. u usually try to build ur base as a fortress, trying to block some map specific choke points.
That games are won in the fights and therefor u need for example a UI with a unit selection that shows me in green/orange/red the hp status of my units. Isn´t that a powerful tool too ? ( Yes it is.. but not necessary in FAF )

Both UI´s are great for their kind of games, but i don´t think, that the UI has more power compared to other good games, just another focus.

If u want to see a poor UI, than play a game like Cossacks, where u don´t have the ability to use shift to give more than one build/move order.

Why dont you just stop playing with build ques above 10 and with no repeat? it would clearly make you a better player as you constantly adjust your unit mix to perfection.

I already do partly. My core factories don´t use ques untill late T3 stage. Ofc on land maps i need some T1 spam factories on infintite que, but i try to adjust it about every minute. My idle core factories often saved me by forcing me to look at the map, checking the enemy and decide, what to build next.. that improved my skill level.

You should go and play a very mechanics heavy game like starcraft brood war with a viewpoint like that, as far more of the skill is in the mechanics than strategy and APM is king.

The list of RTS games i played is long, i don´t like any other genre. For example i played Starcraft, Warcraft III ( looking forward into reforged <3 ) and Starcraft II with at least 1k games each.
Now im old and slower, so i prefer games like FAF with a good balance between micro and macro and i love it the way it is.
With some advice u can learn the basics fast and play at a high level, but if u wanna be "king" , then u need to work on all that 1000 little tricks that might give u an advantage... like reclaiming and rebuilding T3 mex.
For me this keeps the game interesting to seek for new oppurtunities and even after years of playing u can still learn new things to improve yourself ( reminds me that i should prefer to waste my time on studying some great mechanics that i´ve seen in the 4o4 tourney ).

[Spy_Emanciator]

I personally find this to a be a nucance that any benefit is recieved from ctl k and reclaim into build time.

What we are seeing is a harsh penalty on build power applied over upgrades vs hard building and this does not makes sense as you are losing t2 function time while building a t3. Several mechanics in this game have similar inexplicable efficiencies like experimentals and smd missile builds that often times seem to freeze or go bonkers. There's little clarity as to how and why these things suddenly reduce the function of your build power. All of these functions need detailed number values associated and completion times to limit any percieved or real freezes in production when the bar is moving very slowly.

So my take is: if you need mass to rush out some timing like a t3 factory rush, then reclaim. If not fix the adjustments so that your engineers are not suddenly supermen when they do the hard reset.

[Zerzetzung1]

I actually just tested out this in a private game. Ctrl+k t2 mex and building t3 on top is slower than upgrading t2 to t3 while using equal BP. Why would you do this?

[Endranii]

You get reclaim from the wreck, meaning you get free mass if you then rebuild it fast enough to offset the amount that would be produced by t2 mex.

[Zerzetzung1]

But you would need to halt everything else while doing so.

[keyser]

if you have stored mass already (from reclaim as an example) then no need to halt other stuff