Is TML op?

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Re: Is TML op?

Postby biass » 17 Jan 2018, 15:05

"is the one building in the game so lighting fast to convert mass to damage, so fast in fact that (scouting and then building the building designed to counter it in literally every expansion) is too slow thus making the only real strategy to build said counter as soon as you hit the tech level else get eco killed so hard you lose the game/lane, a bit overpowered"

i mean a lil?
making it more vulnerable is a nice idea, makes it more of a plan then a sporadic idea
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Re: Is TML op?

Postby AdmiralZeech » 17 Jan 2018, 15:19

Farmsletje wrote:
AdmiralZeech wrote:I think it's better to have some offense that cannot be passively defended against. Where the only counter is to scout it and destroy it before it does too much damage.

So what is your suggestion for this? Remove tmd? smd? shields? AA? or what?


I'm saying the status quo is fine. TMD is fine as an imperfect defense against TML. It's fine if a TML is guaranteed to dish out some hurt if you complete it.
It's fine if it becomes mandatory to rush a TML or two, and exchanging missiles is a standard part of the game along with spamming tanks and planes.
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Re: Is TML op?

Postby Farmsletje » 17 Jan 2018, 16:19

AdmiralZeech wrote:I'm saying the status quo is fine. TMD is fine as an imperfect defense against TML. It's fine if a TML is guaranteed to dish out some hurt if you complete it.
It's fine if it becomes mandatory to rush a TML or two, and exchanging missiles is a standard part of the game along with spamming tanks and planes.

If it's something everyone would always do because it has a 100% success rate (not saying it is now, but it is what you're suggesting) it's basically a complete garbage gameplay aspect because it isn't even strategic. Even t1 spam would require more strategic thinking because of the constant decision making you have to do.

Also: "counter it by destroying it". Have you not played a teamgame in the last 3 years? Supcom has a big defenders advantage because of the reclaim you'll leave behind and an equal mass invested in stationary defenses will almost always win versus an equal mass invested in units (unless you specifically make mml's or t3 mobile arty, but those take time to build up). Not only that but a tml is so cheap that you will still have the same army size as your opponent unless you literally do a no units ultra fast tml rush (which might even work cause #Teamgames).

Kill it with air?
- Currently you need 6 - 8 bomb drops before you kill a tml (if your opponent won't repair it)
- If your opponent has tml he can easily rush t1 aa turrets with lots of buildpower
- Current t1 bomber build time is about as fast as it takes for a tml to load 1,5 missile and you still have travel time, gl
- Even if you manage to air snipe the tml your enemy your air will leave behind reclaim + the reclaim from the tml launcher
(unless these values are outdated kappa http://spooky.github.io/unitdb/#/UEB210 ... 03,XSA0103)

I'd say even with the tml launcher hp being halved to 750 hp the net mass balance after air sniping it will still be about even, plus you still would've had time to load and fire some tml's
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Re: Is TML op?

Postby Deribus » 17 Jan 2018, 20:21

TMD tends to be the second T2 building that people build, right after a pgen, and I think it's a little silly that even if you catch your opponent building a TML and you don't have TMD yet, it's probably too late for anything but your core mexes. I don't think TML spam is an issue, as it's a valid strategy with its own possible counters, but in the early game (and on smaller maps) TMLs are brutal, even when scouted early on.

I like the ideas of a health nerf to make them easier to kill, but I would also suggest greatly increasing the build time, as it currently takes about a minute for a single T2 engineer to build one, and as little as 17 seconds for a T2 commander. If TMLs take longer to build, it might encourage players to be more careful with their placement in order to hide them, and allow TMD to be either built later on or in response to a TML, not beforehand.

Also, there already is a price difference in TMLs, but I'd say it isn't enough. The quality difference between Cybran TMLs and all others is quite significant, and so I think warrants a larger price difference. Currently, the mass costs are as such:

Cybran: 850
Seraphim: 825
UEF: 800
Aeon: 700

I think Cybran TMLs should be 950 mass at the very least, to make them more similar in risk vs reward to the others.
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Re: Is TML op?

Postby FtXCommando » 17 Jan 2018, 22:09

What did sid start killing the """1600-1700s""" with epic hard-to-react TML snipes again?

The only time TML has ever been an issue for me is when it kills allies that require 3 minute warnings ahead of time followed by another warning 10 seconds before it happens because they forgot about the 3 minute warning.

I can't really recall situations where I needed 5 TMD to protect mexes (but I also don't play aeon). Usually 3 TMD built sufficiently far from the mexes are enough to protect the core as well as 4-5 expansion mexes. When you play obese 2v2 adaptive maps you obviously need like 7-8 TMD but you got about 50 mexes to protect in that situation anyway.

Sniping TMD with TML is just stupid. You either have to do it so early that it puts you behind on 2 t2 mexes or you do it later where your opponent will have like 4 t2 engies running around anyway. Would be able to build an "emergency TMD squad" of 2 t2 engies from a support factory if necessary too.
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Re: Is TML op?

Postby Morax » 17 Jan 2018, 22:11

Cybran tmls have already been nerfed as their maximum magazine size was reduced from 8 --> 4, the "split missile" damage reduced, and the ability to snipe tmd was removed (placing attack mark just before tmd to trick it).

Any further nerf to the tml launcher will render it a moot tool in an already-diminshing set.
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Re: Is TML op?

Postby Plasma_Wolf » 18 Jan 2018, 21:25

In addition to that, the Cybran Tac Missile is 1 hp compared to 2 hp of every other faction. It used to be 2 hp and got nerfed a long time ago.
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Re: Is TML op?

Postby AdmiralZeech » 19 Jan 2018, 16:35

Farmsletje wrote:I'd say even with the tml launcher hp being halved to 750 hp the net mass balance after air sniping it will still be about even, plus you still would've had time to load and fire some tml's



I won't dispute anything you say, since I'm not playing much these days.

But you seem to talking about the scenario where only one side builds TMLs. What if TMLs were as mandatory as tanks and mexes? What happens when both sides are definitely getting them? And rather than trying to kill it with units, they're sniping each other's mexes and TMLs with their own TMLs?
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Re: Is TML op?

Postby FtXCommando » 19 Jan 2018, 16:45

AdmiralZeech wrote:
Farmsletje wrote:I'd say even with the tml launcher hp being halved to 750 hp the net mass balance after air sniping it will still be about even, plus you still would've had time to load and fire some tml's



I won't dispute anything you say, since I'm not playing much these days.

But you seem to talking about the scenario where only one side builds TMLs. What if TMLs were as mandatory as tanks and mexes? What happens when both sides are definitely getting them? And rather than trying to kill it with units, they're sniping each other's mexes and TMLs with their own TMLs?


About as likely as losing navy to wagner spam.
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Re: Is TML op?

Postby Farmsletje » 19 Jan 2018, 17:00

I already gave you answer on that in my previous post
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