T1 submarines price down ?

[Farmsletje]

Almost all the non ladder maps i play have underwater mexes. Flooded tabula, flooded argon, flooded corona, fields of the great phoenix, point of reach, diversity, twin rivers, neptune, flooded monument valley, flooded funeral plains, anchor, africa, etc. Newer water maps like Nihau island or Chiron also have underwater mexes.

There are basically only 2 water maps that are played a lot and don't have underwater mexes. Setons and dual gap. There are a ton of water maps without any underwater mexes but if nobody ever plays them it doesn't matter anyway.

[Ithilis_Quo]

There are basically only 2 water maps that are played a lot and don't have underwater mexes. Setons and dual gap. There are a ton of water maps without any underwater mexes but if nobody ever plays them it doesn't matter anyway.

But whitch maps are played and not is changing by time. Why i have so many maps is because im playing supcom since 2007 and this is mount of maps that was once played i remember times where nowadays total crazy super shit maps was most popular. And in futere will be also times where dual gap will be consider as super shit map (oh wait).

Another example why its bad argument:
Auroras are too good on flat maps -> reasult -> change all maps to not be flat and make auroras weaker by map design. (i dont say they are its jas eample why its not most vise idea to demant change all maps to fix balance problem with unit)

[Farmsletje]

But whitch maps are played and not is changing by time. Why i have so many maps is because im playing supcom since 2007 and this is mount of maps that was once played i remember times where nowadays total crazy super shit maps was most popular. And in futere will be also times where dual gap will be consider as super shit map (oh wait).

Another example why its bad argument:
Auroras are too good on flat maps -> reasult -> change all maps to not be flat and make auroras weaker by map design. (i dont say they are its jas eample why its not most vise idea to demant change all maps to fix balance problem with unit)

The present is more important than the past don't you think so?

The problem can definitely lie within the map: Imagine a 40x40 map with the same mex placement as theta passage. This will obviously be impossible to play because every single mex will be miles away from your starting position and will make for terrible gameplay. Now what if there were a lot of maps made that way? People can argue that t1 mexes need a buff because they do not produce enough mass for this kind of map, but obviously the fault lies within the map. Even though there are a lot of these maps, it is the map design that is bad, not the mex income design. Bad maps should not have an influence on game balance. whether there are a lot of them or not.

Plus, except for setons or dual gap there are almost no currently played water maps with a 'bad map design', and believe me, in almost every single of those games t1 subs are being used.

[zeroAPM]

What is a "bad map" though?

[CSI]

According to him it's a map without water mexes lol.

In my opinion Seton is a very god map for the following reasons :
- big enough so all the tech levels are useful
- 8 players
- Land, water and air all used together
- Each player focuses on one thing (land, naval, air superiority)
- Teamplay is the key
- players from the same team are not too close to each other
- battle for the reclaim
- neutral islands
- each position has a different gamplay (at least at the beginning)

The only negative point for me is the width of the clutch which is too tight and makes navy too strong against mid player.

[FtXCommando]

Everyone thinks subs are under-powered until you reach critical mass of them in the water.

Also if you want a game balanced around setons, go play gala's balance mod. Strange to see he hasn't messed with t1 subs if they're so garbage on the map tho.

[Farmsletje]

-lots of pointless text-

On almost every current map t1 subs are usefull, but in the past few months i've never seen a single t1 sub being build on setons. That leaves you with 2 options:

A: t1 sub is too weak (and is therefor not well balanced in the game)
B: the map design doesn't allow for the usage of t1 subs.

Don't shove words in my mouth that i didn't say. I don't think setons is a bad map. However, no map is perfect.

What is a "bad map" though?

What is a "bad map" though?

I shouldn't ahve said 'bad maps' but 'bad map design'

[zeroAPM]

What is "bad map design" then?

[Farmsletje]

You can easily find it in the previous posts

[zeroAPM]

Until a clear and well defined standard is established we're all here blowing hot air.
And not even in the same direction to achieve a constant air flow either.
As long as we have X different people all with their own definition of "bad map design", with X>1, nothing will get done because everybody will have their definition of "bad map design" that, at best, will barely intersect with all other people's definitions.