Cybran Frig/Destro AA nerf

[Mel_Gibson]

I like to play with boats a lot on Setons, so forgive my ignorance, but I cannot make sense of this change. I've seen vague mutters that it's OP on 1v1 or something. I would hope it is not controversial to say Cybran have by far the worst naval aa capabilities except from at the t1 stage/very early t2. They easily have the worst all round cruiser for aa, not because it is slightly slower at killing stuff but because it can be destroyed almost immediately and effectively by torps and gunships. No other faction is at such a disadvantage. Aeon have infinite health cruisers with properly microd mobile shields. UEF have that giant floating infinite health condom to protect their cruisers, and while sera cruisers are also as vulnerable to torps as cybran until late t3 shields, they are heavily compensated by being immune to gunships and probably mutually killing all torps sent. Whereas with cybran cruisers there will still be plenty of torps to carry on killing the rest of your navy. It's higher HP is irrelevant because it still dies to 4 torps. Not to even mention that Aeon and Sera can have 10+ floaty flak for the cost of a cruiser which are immune to torps, and for all intents and purposes gunships too.

Yes, cybran pwn inties and t1 bombers better than anyone else at the start. But once t2 hits they just don't have the tools to compensate against a heavy air investment. In theory, one could build no navy and easily torp cybran out of the water in a way that you just can't do to any other faction. And given that their frigates are possibly just as important for aa as their cruisers, this changes just makes it even worse. What am I missing here? Where is the OP? How does it even come close to t2 floaty flak and shields?

I know people pretend there is 1v1 (woooo cybran op!!!) and maps other than Setons. I hope i'm wrong but I see cybran being almost completely unplayable in any slot on Setons (perhaps slight exaggeration). This saddens me.

(disclaimer: these opinions are my own and not of the Setons community)

[zeroAPM]

1) Torp defence is a thing
2) The Cybran cruiser is immediately useful in direct combat due to using cannons instead of missiles
3) Counter intelligence boat

[ZLO_RD]

i had ~4 strats loosing to ~5 destroyers =\

[Mel_Gibson]

1) Torp defence is a thing
2) The Cybran cruiser is immediately useful in direct combat due to using cannons instead of missiles
3) Counter intelligence boat

I fail to see how any of this is relevant against air...

i had ~4 strats loosing to ~5 destroyers =\

Must have been some nice destro micro. But still, strats against navy? Can't say i've ever seen them being that effective against navy. Equivalent mass in t2 gunships/torps would have been an absolute insta crush against 5 cybran destros with barely a casualty.

[Lieutenant Lich]

Counter intelligence boat makes your navy simply be invisible. Being invisible = having a shield. If your enemy does not know you are there, you are under no threat of attack.

[Viba]

Gee, ever heard of scouts, omni? Just like kids and their blanked in bed, can hide from monsters under it

[Lieutenant Lich]

I have heard of both. Have you heard of a "move" command? Very simple, once scouted - move to a different spot and then the enemy has to scout again. Also, I don't see an Omni among T2 structures, do you?

[Viba]

Have you heard about target lock? I'd like to see the mermaid protect against that in a way comparable to the UEF cooper that you compared it to.

[Myxir]

the current t1/t2 naval AA on cybran units is pretty much OP in 1v1 or smaller teamgames, their frigates are cheapest and good in everything, and their naval does not even really need cruisers until t3 air makes its appearance
if the problem is tons of t2/t3 air, wouldn't it make sense to buff their dedicated AA units (cruiser and carrier) instead of frigates and destroyers?

[Mel_Gibson]

Why is it OP in 1v1 and smaller team games? I obviously don't have enough experience in either for me to not be understanding this. The only way I can see it is OP is that one can just spam destros and frigs without having to actually having to put any thought into unit composition. Who is t1 bombing cybran navy or having inties fights over it? They certainly aren't OP against t2 air and have no counter other than just never losing air. And if you do lose air the cruisers don't really help so you have no alternative. You can't make shields, you can't make flak. Although I know it's never quite this simple, mass for mass cybran navy will lose to air. If you're in a team game with an 'air player' and he loses, you lose too. Buffing the cruiser I don't really see as viable unless you make it OP because unless you make it far superior to every other cruiser it will die to around 1k mass in torps. Like I said, the problem isn't necessarily that it can't kill stuff as well, it more that you can't defend it or build flak. The carriers are nice but carrier rushing sounds a bit...