Faction Diversity

[Blodir]

Probably because I don't really post there since I believe everyone should have a chance to state their opinion about changes to a game we're all playing, no matter how good we are at it. Everyone is free to discuss as much and with whom they like, but the official forum is here, and open to everyone, and I want it to stay like this, even with all the downsides coming with this.

The way to improve the quality of discussion and opinion is to post more posts that are well thought out and with an opinion based on knowledge about the game and balance, to set an example and encourage more of such posts, like blodir did here (even, or especially when we disagree in many things here) . Not to hide this posts in a different place, even when it can be annoying to have a lot of misinformation or rather adventurous opinions inbetween. Just imagine how I feel.

I agree with Zock here and this is why I'm posting in this forum, I think everyone should be able to see discussions particularly if they are useful and reinforce mutual respect despite differing opinions. That being said, it's frustrating to see discussion buried in posts that have little to do with any of the points raised in the original post.

I'm a little bit of a hypocrite here

[Morax]

You want to open it up to everyone to allow for everyone's opinion but I fail to see how this forum is productive when that happens.

Agreed with this, Kal.

It's not elitist nor false to state that the general postings are 90% garbage. When you need help with something you go to an expert, not a group of people full of opinions. We want answers with expertise and proven track records.

I didn't pay you, Zock, for a lesson because I wanted a general opinion.

[Blodir]

It is of course arguable how big the problems caused by 3655 are, however I do not see why we can't introduce faction diversity in more healthy ways. It's not like there's a particular need for these changes specifically and they are causing a lot of dismay, why not choose a safer route?

Is there really a safer route? I would assume that nerfing Cybran toys will cause much more dismay.

Maybe there is a way to resolve the issue satisfactory: Compensate the lower HP with regen. This can keep the vulnerability to raiding and bombers but give something nominal in return. That would definitely be something with precedence in the FAF balance.

Yes, I believe there are many ways to increase faction diversity without ever touching the ever so sensitive eco/tech buildings. Say you want to make a faction about hit and run / counterattacking type of gameplay, then you might want to give their basic units good mobility and damage but make them fragile as a tradeoff - this makes the faction feel actively different and players will have to take a different approach to the game than when playing with another faction.

As for nerfing Cybran; without going into much detail my stance on this since the dawn of time has been that the largest advantage that Cybran has over other factions is the fact that the faction has the most balanced mix of units, in other words the faction doesn't have any (significant) weaknesses. For various reasons I would not look into nerfing Cybran as it is, but rather cover up some weaknesses of other factions. I think straight up nerfs should only be done when a certain unit proves problematic, rather than the faction as a whole - whenever such a case occurs most people who follow balance tend to see it coming and it generally doesn't cause much dismay unless the nerf is seemingly overkill.

[Lieutenant Lich]

Blodir, I was thinking the same way and so were other people who suggested to buff other factions without nerfing cybran. That is the way I went with my mod, but, of course, it needs much more testing

[angus000]

Blodir, I was thinking the same way and so were other people who suggested to buff other factions without nerfing cybran. That is the way I went with my mod, but, of course, it needs much more testing

Why would you change 3 factions when you should be changing only one? If you buff all factions but cybran, the final result will be the same, cybran would have been nerfed, and you just inflated numbers.

If cybran is the agressive faction, nerfing their HP is the right way to go.

[AdmiralZeech]

As for nerfing Cybran; without going into much detail my stance on this since the dawn of time has been that the largest advantage that Cybran has over other factions is the fact that the faction has the most balanced mix of units, in other words the faction doesn't have any (significant) weaknesses. For various reasons I would not look into nerfing Cybran as it is, but rather cover up some weaknesses of other factions. I think straight up nerfs should only be done when a certain unit proves problematic, rather than the faction as a whole - whenever such a case occurs most people who follow balance tend to see it coming and it generally doesn't cause much dismay unless the nerf is seemingly overkill.

If Cybran doesnt have any weaknesses, then isnt the correct solution to give them some weaknesses? (Alternatively, to remove their strengths, so they become the vanilla icecream faction. Although that seems to fit UEF theme more than Cybran.)

Having different strengths -and- weaknesses is the goal of diversity, I thought?

[Sovietpride]

Cybran weaknesses?

Crappy anti air
Geared ACU into base
People with pitchforks and torches and a copious amount of QQ
Walls.

[Nepty]

If Cybran doesnt have any weaknesses, then isnt the correct solution to give them some weaknesses?--
--Having different strengths -and- weaknesses is the goal of diversity, I thought?

Correct. It's just that when people say 'Cybran' and 'weaknesses' in the same sentence, people have like a panic attack. The look for every excuse not to fix the problem. "Don't alter cybran, alter everyone else." Cybran is the problem, not everyone else. Other factions have weaknesses...

Cybran is like NOD from Command and Conquer 3. Sneaky, very high tech, fast, but low HP (or expensive?)

It's simple video game rules. If you're fast = you must have low HP. If you're slow = you should have a lot of HP. Why? Balance.
Alternative: Tech 1 Long range = slow movement/low HP (Aeon). Tech 1 Short range = fast movement/high RoF (Cybran).

However, Zock doing a great job, and I like the direction FAF is going. The Regen structures was an idea I got from C&C Generals. The USA faction had auto repair on damaged buildings. It fit Cybran so well.

[Morax]

In this case Blodir, myself, and many others who understand the game fairly well are heavily opposed so I'd say it's not a good idea to push this one.

I dont really like this kind of posts, they dont contain any proof or specification, neither your "clear arguments".

Okay captain I want a book-length post. Please share some replays and detailed analysis about why you believe this patch is okay with the eco structure changes? I'd really love to see how much you enjoy watching a t3 mex or pgen getting killed by one tml missile.

Have you seen how quick labs can be built and deployed to counter an early bomber now? If someone first bombers you you can create a few labs to rush and take out the engies that are starting to expand since it's unlikely there will be land units around to counter them. Sure, you could send a bomber to attack them but you won't get all of them.

Please, do shed some lovely details about why you think this is such a great idea.

[Morax]

Has anyone here ever made two tml launchers and seen what kind of havoc it can cause by individually targeting tmds, then go for eco structures? I hope so, because you're going to get a lot more of that moving forward.

For the love of FAF, please test the damn patch and try these things out. This whole nonsense, arguing through prose on the boards and using it as justification is so lame.