T2 Hover Flak

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Re: T2 Hover Flak

Postby Zock » 27 Jul 2016, 10:43

Morax wrote:
Zock wrote:If its so impossible, how did people deal with sera all the years before the nerfs to flak, and why did no one complain about it?


Are you telling me you think it's not absurdly easy to win as Sera on Haven Reef, Roanoake, etc etc verse other factions?

And Open Waters which no one plays because it is ridiculous to play anything other than Sera?


I think its harder, but by no means impossible, indeed. And the speed of hover flak has not much impact as the major annoyance comes from fobos, which won't be changed.

The flak is back to status quo now. If anyone wants a nerf, he needs to bring some arguments for it, and think of a useful nerf thats different to speed for the reasons mentioned already.

And there is no use in comparing single units like flak with each other and point out one of them is better than the others, (my) balance works by comparing factions or tech stages. Is hover flak speed making aeon and sera too strong? While aeon is in no need for a buff, sera can use some additional advantages here and there, and if it fits well together with existing advantages to make certain strategies (like hover) possible or stronger for a faction, its very good, as long as its not OP.

A speed nerf for land only (aka buff for water only) is not bad, but it has two downsides too:
a) its still gonna reduce convinience when using it with hovertanks on land, the alternative would be to make it as slow as obsidian/ilshie but i am quite sure that would be too much nerf
b) its reducing faction diversity by making all flak the same speed, even though the difference is already not very meaningful, so its a lesser point
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Re: T2 Hover Flak

Postby IceDreamer » 27 Jul 2016, 13:36

Well I for one think the "Status Quo" is and always has been complete bullshit. Come up with one legitimate reason for Aeon and Seraphim's T2 Mobile Flak to be so outrageously strictly superior to the other two, I dare you. It's no good arguing about entire stages of the game when, in this case, it's just going to lead to unjustified imbalance increases.

I propose that something be done with the speed on all four to bring logic, balance, diversity and convenience to their use. It just so happens that the primary assault tank at T2 for Aeon and Seraphim are slower than the UEF or Cybran ones. There-in lies the solution, and it's exactly what you said above. We make it so all T2 flak are the same speed as the primary tank on land (Better convenience for managing armies, which is your whole argument for this debacle in the first place). In return for their slower land speed, the Aeon and Seraphim then get not only hover in the first place, but also a speed boost on water up to 3.48 (The new speed of the hovertanks).

Within the four, we then have a mild internal shift. The UEF will be slightly faster than Cybran, but has less DPS to compensate, so we're good there. The Seraphim is slightly slower than the Aeon on land, but otherwise identical, so I think it should be given a little something in order to compensate there.

Also, please note that the current balance in main FAF is very good in this case. Pretty much everyone here is disagreeing with you Zock. The onus of reason is not with us, it is on you. YOU need to provide reasons for changing a very good status quo, one in which flak could be argued as being OP already! It is functionally incorrect for you to change something for very weak reasons, then insist we argue against change. You need to argue FOR the change.
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Re: T2 Hover Flak

Postby Zock » 27 Jul 2016, 13:52

I made the last change (the nerfs to flak) and I was the only one arguing for it, I had my reasons for this change, but with less hover speed this reasons are gone, so if the change needs to stay there need to be new reasoning for it.

If the mere fact that it should stay just because I put it in the last patch is reason enough, it's also reason enough for me to remove it again. ;)

But I'm not against nerf in it for different treason if they are good. I already considered what you propose myself, it has some obvious upsides.

However, slowing down flak speed on land would make it harder for aeon and sera to deal with t2 gunships, while this might be actually good for aeon with their anyway strong t2 air, sera does not need any kind of additional nerf right now (and they'd get the biggest hit).

So if sera flak speed on land gets nerfed, they'd need to get some compensation (and not to compensate the difference to aeon, but to compensate the difference to e.g. Cybran) , which would already make the change more complex and thus less desirable compared to how it was before (which I keep believing wasn't op unless shown otherwise, hover flak always played a secondary role on water and the speed on land was always quite fine).

But if someone can suggest a good compensation for sera, aligning the speed of flak to heavy instead of light tanks is something we can do.
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Re: T2 Hover Flak

Postby IceDreamer » 27 Jul 2016, 14:45

If the issue with Sera is keeping up with the gunship raids (Defending the army isn't a problem because ilshies are slow) then I'd suggest one of two things:

- Increased DPS. Sera enjoy doing things using brute strength, and Cybran's DPS is higher anyway. 144 > 150 is a start, but that DPS could probably go to 160 before problems arose.
- Decrease cost. Less cost = more units = more ground covered. This more directly counteracts your concerns.
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Re: T2 Hover Flak

Postby Hawkei » 27 Jul 2016, 16:34

IceDreamer wrote:A global buff for two of the strongest units in the game is utterly indefensible, especially when it puts them ahead of their equals in other factions again (God knows why THAT was ever a thing!).


I'm expecting to hear the words "faction diversity" being uttered any minute now.
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Re: T2 Hover Flak

Postby Zock » 29 Jul 2016, 11:29

Hawkei wrote:
IceDreamer wrote:A global buff for two of the strongest units in the game is utterly indefensible, especially when it puts them ahead of their equals in other factions again (God knows why THAT was ever a thing!).


I'm expecting to hear the words "faction diversity" being uttered any minute now.


Please stay constructive.


DPS or Cost are both suboptimal..i am not sure if there is any good compensation, thats why i asked in the first place. DPS will not help against gunships, and the critical factor about gunships is to get flak there in time before they arrive, i don't think the assumption of less cost = more units = more ground covered is working. First, you always build as much flak as needed, you cant afford to have important ground uncovered, no matter if flak is more expensive or less. Thus, you won't cover more ground if its cheaper. You just have to invest less, which is an upside, but not helping the issue.

Second, even if it were correct, what is important against gunships is to get the first 2-5 flak out and in the key positions to defend, cost don't matter here, only the timing.

I also don't like to change the cost for one faction when all others are the same.

Since its impossible to buff the flak in a way that helps the gunship problem (unless someone can suggest something), a buff that makes the flak better in some relevant different area to compensate needs to be found. More DPS could work potentially, even though current DPS is already good and enough to scare away air, more won't make it much better than other flaks. More range or projectile speed could be an alternative, but they are not perfect either - still open to more suggestions. (or rather: they are required for the speed nerf to happen)

Moving this topic from the testing team to public balance discussion too, so other people can participate now where the beta is out.
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