Balancing idea

[Ithilis_Quo]

And what about navy? should be nerf frigate, or buff higer tech, to make frigates obsolate crap imediatly when higer tech occur, because its natural and logical? Isnt it more "natural" and "logical" that on every elite higer tech tank even in second war was at least 5 crap tanks and at least 100 soldier in 0 tech infantry ?

Higher tech unit should be better as lower tech, but must be that expensive that lower tech must create projectile folder to higer tech to be effective. Higer tech should be ace in hand that you use in specific situation where doesnt mather how much you pay for it. That increase usable tactics exponencionaly. And yes its preatty hard to do, and at this moment it is still not working even in equilibrium. But this is way how i hope game will go, while its game that i want to play, and dont know any that is even close to it.

[Bismarx]

There is also the overkill-dimension that is not mentioned yet. As Ithilis says, Navy is pretty well balanced for all techs to coexist in its niche and i would agree.

This is true because each tier deals with different threats. Frigate-spam e. g. counters land-hover-spam that would otherwise kill the battleships needed for opening up a battle/sinking t2/killing shields/coastal bombardment as these units hopelessly overkill spam. A bit of a King-tiger vs. T34-85 situation.

So what is with t4 land-experimentals? While in theory t1-land spam provides more firepower than a ML/GC, the range and veterancy gained by those t4-units make this univable as those units are effective at destroying large AND small targets. This is largely due to the beam-weapons those exp. use, which do not provide a lot of overkill. If they would produce a lot of overkill however, they would not be effective and a player would have to surround those units with t3-units to counter t1-landspam. Where this is not possible, e. g. because you want to walk your experimental up a shore, things would become more complicated (you would have to e. g. fly in t3-units by transport to assist).

So i guess it is a multidimensional thing to balance: Cost/Firepower/build-time/overkill/range/speed. In games like starcraft units are being kept in the game via. damage-types (A effective vs. B which is effective vs. C which in turn counters A). I do not think damage-type (apart from splash) would need to be an issue in FA, as these things can also be achieved otherwise.

[angus000]

I did some math using the database numbers and found out the obvious, t3 land is more efficent mass per mass than t1 (except percies), whereas it's the opposite for navy. A galaxy would need 128 seconds to kill equal mass in frigates if they had 1800 hp (100 less), double that since they actually have 1900. Whereas the 32 frigates only need 47.000hp/(32-1*seconds/4)*64.29dps=seconds => 29.78 seconds ignoring range; the difference is massive, therefore, in navy, lower tear units are way more efficient. However, higher tear units provide a tactical advantage (range mostly) and thus they remain equally useful as well.

Even ignoring range, t1 land units lose to t3 land units in equal mass (ignoring ridicuslous overkill cases) so why make them?

Edit: the actual formula was 47.000hp/{[32+(32-1*seconds/4)]/2*64.29dps}=seconds but whatever

not working even in equilibrium

Spoiler: show

[Lieutenant Lich]

Like angus said, higher tech is meant to be a lower tech. It is logical, it is natural selection and it is the right balance.

This has to be a mistype...

It is. Fixed to "... higher tech is meant to beat a lower tech".

[Hawkei]

So what is wrong with lower tech units not being built again?

On end of game game with 200units shrink for only 2-3 units, whats are experimental higer level class. Colloseal waste of potencial gameplay strategy.

The problem exists with the player, not the game. With an exponential increase in resources you will find that investment in T1 units is a minimal cost, and has hardly any impact on your production of T3. Lower tech units have the advantage of higher numbers, lower cost, and higher damage output for minimal investment. They can be everywhere. They are cheap and expendable - and they can apply pressure and inflict damage to enemy outlying resourcing operations. Without risking the primary attack force.

Best of all, they give exactly the same vision radius, and same radar signature as higher tech units. Loosing a few T1 battalions is of no consequence in the late game.

Also, T1 artillery (and sometimes even LAB's) can be successfully integrated into a T2 or T3 force to give that extra firepower. So as your primary tech force is marching forward in formation, you can have a band of T1 units dispatched for mopping up, and perhaps even advanced scouting ahead of the tech force.

[Lieutenant Lich]

The problem exists with the player, not the game. With an exponential increase in resources you will find that investment in T1 units is a minimal cost, and has hardly any impact on your production of T3. Lower tech units have the advantage of higher numbers, lower cost, and higher damage output for minimal investment. They can be everywhere. They are cheap and expendable - and they can apply pressure and inflict damage to enemy outlying resourcing operations. Without risking the primary attack force.

Bull's eye.

[biass]

also part of the t3 rush issue comes from maps a bit

its kinda easy to go for high tech rush on a map like vya with like 50k + reclaim and make about 100 loyalists with only making t1 mex

and on a lot of maps for ladder rn (twinrivers, badlands, etc) you essentially get one base with about 20 mexes and no unsafe expansions leading to a lot of easy halfmap teching and ras

i know from playing icestars viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12345&p=126061#p126058 with very spaced out mexes and sparse reclaim that tech has not really been rushed out until one player has managed to secure a proper advantage, when until then units are pumped out rather slowly on comparison (3-4 facs)

but idk ( ° ͜ʖ°)

[Ithilis_Quo]

So what is wrong with lower tech units not being built again?

On end of game game with 200units shrink for only 2-3 units, whats are experimental higer level class. Colloseal waste of potencial gameplay strategy.

The problem exists with the player, not the game. (...)

You dont know what you are talking about but totally. Best will be when you try it to your own in sandbox and then please replay the reasult, here is manul:

- Brick cost same as 24mantis, try 24 mantis vs 1 brick that kite ( what is reasult?)
- now try 10 brick that kite and use range against 240 mantis, what is reasult?
- you can say brick is superior ower lower tech, ok lets go with percival against same number.
- you can also say that also factory cost somethig, so lets say that you will have 50% more t1 units, so go with 360 striker against 10 percival.

then you will see:
- that is no chance and reason go with lower tech against higer tech because:
-- higer tech is range hightly superior, they fire when lower tech cant, you can grap much much more power on smaller place
-- units movment and path finding is big problem for units with low range, because cant get on range while another one hundret other units is dieing in front. most of your t1 fore will not fire, or even never shoot. you will see it in your sandbox. So doesnt mather how cheap they are, and how many of them you have they will die rapidly fast and do nearly zero damage.

try your sanbox and post reasults

[Lieutenant Lich]

Ithilis is right. Higher tech is more firepower and health packed into more mass. Say Pillar - it is 3 strikers with decimals. It is more efficient that strikers. Higher tech is made for that purpose - to have more in the same cost. If you have fewer units - the strategy changes. You need to know where to place those few units as just spamming T1 all the time will not work. And as eco get's better, one can spam T2 or T3 just as good as T1. I think eco is balanced well. What is not balanced is the OP cybran, useless Titan and plenty of other sh*t.

[angus000]

Well as Ithilis says, I did some testing on sandbox and the ACTUAL reason why lower tech units, namely t1, are useless late game is because 1) pahtfinding messes with large group of units, and 2) because of veterancy.

24 mantis would kill a brick (if we don't take into account their range differences) if it were not because the brick gets veterancy just when it's about to be killed.