The misfits

[Apofenas]

Only T3 air really matters once it exists. T1 air and T2 air dont have any way to being effective against ASFs. The point made hundreds of times already. Is air effective sure, but T1 and T2 air are not effective once ASFs show up. So building air only works better than land if you end up with T3 air.

True, but only for team games with dedicated air slot. You have like 3 non-gap maps in replay vault and those are wonder, canis and thermo. Compare to Briang who has at least half ladder. There is a lot of units which just don't work in team games because 8+ players bunch up in 10x10 map. While those units are rather strong or at least competitive in 1v1 on same 10x10 map. This works both ways. ASF are OP in team games, true, but by the time you actually get them in 1v1s, t1, t2 air and drops will wreck you, just because you can't eco for 10 minutes and than pump out some t3 planes to make everything fine.

[KD7BCH]

Only T3 air really matters once it exists. T1 air and T2 air dont have any way to being effective against ASFs. The point made hundreds of times already. Is air effective sure, but T1 and T2 air are not effective once ASFs show up. So building air only works better than land if you end up with T3 air.

True, but only for team games with dedicated air slot. You have like 3 non-gap maps in replay vault and those are wonder, canis and thermo. Compare to Briang who has at least half ladder. There is a lot of units which just don't work in team games because 8+ players bunch up in 10x10 map. While those units are rather strong or at least competitive in 1v1 on same 10x10 map. This works both ways. ASF are OP in team games, true, but by the time you actually get them in 1v1s, t1, t2 air and drops will wreck you, just because you can't eco for 10 minutes and than pump out some t3 planes to make everything fine.

No not true. On a 81x81 or 40x40 map T3 air is the only one that matters, most 20x20 maps T3 air again is the only thing that matters. Like Briang said the larger the map the most air has the advantage but lets not talk about all air like it is the same. While yes T1 and T2 air is faster than land they are massively outclassed by T3 air. If it is even possible and you invest 100K into T2 air that is just stupid because once a handful of T3 ASFs show up you will lose the whole damn 100K. It isn't just the mass and energy but the build time too. The point being ASFs are overpowered in the current build. Larger maps just exacerbate that. T1 and T2 air are great fun for the very few maps which never make it to T3 which are those 10x10s where you are bunched in like sardines in a 4v4 or 5v5 or 6v6. Even Wonder you can see this, ASFs on map yep too late for a FB strike now have to go T3 too. It isnt like on ground where just because your opponent is next tier up with units, T1 is still viable to the end of the more games than not on Wonder, where it quickly becomes irrelevant if ever was relevant on Setons. If the issue in 1v1 is games where ASFs show up they dont really have the same effect on air as in team games then clearly Korbah's solution to increase their costs and nerf their speed deserve some consideration instead of the instant dismissal for the layered reasoning always given by those three dozen "pros" in the 1500+ category.

If anything is a misfit it is the fact that 90% of players don't play at that level anyway so fixing ASFs for the rest of us would have little or no real effect on their game anyway.

[TheKoopa]

ASF perform exactly the way they should. It is the maps making "air slots" that make it seem like they are OP. There is a simple explanation to why ASFs are good^

1) It requires a T3 air factory
2) It requires RAS to even start ASF production, RAS is not good enough to have a sufficient ASF production, while you can make T2 air on a single T2 pgens
3) ASF are air superiority fighters, shouldn't they win air superiority?
4) T2 fb are a jack of all trades, they are able to both attack land and air, but are not epic in both. Restorer was too good at A/A in 3599, and the fact it could attack land put it over the edge

[briang]

You are all missing the point. We are talking SPECIFICALLY about gunship/flak balance. You are letting this fool derail the actual discussion. I highly suggest you all just delete your posts here and continue the actual discussion.

We should have been ignoring him for months. My fault for acknowledging him in the first place.

[Exotic_Retard]

well i will try to be on topic for once i guess :3

one thing that annoys me about flak is that its not a very consistent unit, especially static flak.

what i mean by this is - it misses a lot of shots for apparently 0 reason.
when a plane is circling ahead its understandable since the muzzle velocity is quite low so the plane can doge them.
but what really annoys me is how flak has trouble hitting planes which are moving in a straight line. it looks like the target prediction algorithm is an approximation which becomes more apparent as the amount you need to lead the target by increases.

for this reason i would like to see flak with a much higher muzzle velocity.

however it is currently quite well balanced imo (mobile that is. static is a bit too weak but eh) and also has some interesting relations with air - rapes gunships but is a lot slower, and can at the same time be sniped by fighter bombers. pretty nice. and i would like that to stay.

so i would like to see flak with much higher muzzle velocity, more aoe, but lower dps.
- more aoe + muzzle = still owns hordes of gunships (lower dps is canceled by hitting more at the same time)
- muzzle velocity and dps decrease cancel out to give same performance vs single targets (FBs)
- actually hits things that its aiming for = more consistency = less rage
- more different to the high single target t3maa

hope this helps

[JaggedAppliance]

I wouldn't like higher muzzle velocity because then you couldn't dodge flak shots. Atm if you spot your inties getting near flak you can dodge the shots with them and not lose your entire airforce. Gunships can also dodge flak shots which is quite cool. I think flak may be a little op atm tbh but i'm not sure.

[Gorton]

About flak :
Honestly, mobile flak does very nicely vs gunships and t1 air. You *can* micro around it nicely, and I think that's a good thing for the game. They protect very well against air at t1 and t2, and if you are defeated air to ground, there is some critical errors somewhere else I think

Static flak is what needs a buff - it's useless, outmatched by mobile in every way.
I suggested before to change static flak into expensive but static (and more importantly, available at t2) t3 air killers, with high muzzle velo and alpha, kinda like seraphim t3.
They wouldn't have any effect on mobile, and mobile wouldn't make them worthless + adding a possible counter to defend vs early strat without air.
The expense/inefficiency would make it not worth to spam.

[JaggedAppliance]

That's an interesting idea but if static t2 aa will be good vs strats it will be very good vs f/bs so that should be considered.

[Gorton]

That's an interesting idea but if static t2 aa will be good vs strats it will be very good vs f/bs so that should be considered.

Even if one of them could kill 2 bombers before a bomber dropped, (and that's really really stronk, if you think about it) it would be worse than mobile flaks or inties, and probably more expensive. I don't think you could feasibly defend with them against FB.

[Aulex]

That's an interesting idea but if static t2 aa will be good vs strats it will be very good vs f/bs so that should be considered.

Even if one of them could kill 2 bombers before a bomber dropped, (and that's really really stronk, if you think about it) it would be worse than mobile flaks or inties, and probably more expensive. I don't think you could feasibly defend with them against FB.

I'd imagine that will indirectly nerf cyban and uef t2 fb as it takes a like a second for them to release their payload vs sera which does it instantly.