Proposal: Make Submarines stronger, but slower underwater

[Mycen]

I noticed the Barracuda's water vision is listed as 32 on the unitdb, whereas all of the other sub hunters and destroyers are listed at 45. What's up with that?

but what's up with seraphim? 50-60 range is optimal for seraphim destroyer to fight with other destroyers. Add more water vision and torps with 55 range and this unit will be extremely hard to deal with other destroyers.

So how about, rather a range increase by 5 instead of 10? If sub hunters and sera destoyer had only a little bit more range than destroyers, they could attack at range, but given how the units maneuver and how the ranges overlap, you shouldn't be able to kite effectively with more than a few at a time. Maybe that would hopefully prevent sera destroyers from being too powerful against other factions' destroyers? It also might require other factions to include a broader mix of units to counter the sera's one unit? 55 range also means torp defences are not suddenly totally useless.

I don't see why you would need to alter their water vision range at all?

I thought about nomad t3 sub feature so sera destroyer would get bigger torp range and water vision only when submerged.

That would work too, I guess? Although it seems a little arbitrary.

What i mean is It's not that simple as it looks.

Maybe not, but it's a lot simpler than a lot of the other ideas I see being tossed around. You're right though, I feel like I typed out pretty much this same conversation a while ago...

[zeroAPM]

Requires more micro for higher payoff, may lead to different strategies.

I would hate for subs to be slower, right now I build a few into my naval force and often use them for 'combat scouting'.
I think keyser is right, if we had more maps with underwater mex they would be in a much better place.

Also just like in real life.

In real life, a T1 'diesel-electric' submarine is invisible to sonar 80% of the time, and can sink any ship with 1 torpedo.
With T2 'nuclear-powered' submarines being underpowered because they are not invisible to sonar.

I don't think real life can give us any guidance on how ships should function in this game.

I thought that (IRL) nuclear subs where much stealthier than diesel powered ones since turbines are in general that much quieter.

[keyser]

Actually it's possible to win barracuda vs cybran destro.
but it require micro from the player using sub, and none from the destro one.

with a little dps buff, it would make T2 subs able to beat destro only with good micro. that is the best solution imo. (if destro player micro well, it would end into a draw)

[Ithilis_Quo]

submarines already beat destryers, but only in big numbers. you need about 10+ for beat same mass in destroyers, and yes they beat destroyers. (its because they better use torp defens, are smaler and closer, so better stack defense)

Problem is what next? one player invest all mass into submarines and win only when have them a lot -> what is very big risk. And when win, then dont do any damage to non navy stuff. Where player who dont take risk because build destroers will anihilate navy, and then base and win game.

[keyser]

i should have add "even in few number" in my previous post.
with 2 barracuda you can beat (or at least draw) a cybran destro. But it require micro, and none from the player having the destro.

[TheKoopa]

Adding range to the sera destroyer would not make it "difficult to deal with" but literally impossible. The beams never miss. Making it have same range as Cybran/Aeon would have dire consequences.

[yeager]

Adding range to the sera destroyer would not make it "difficult to deal with" but literally impossible. The beams never miss. Making it have same range as Cybran/Aeon would have dire consequences.

They are talking about Torps

[Tremarl]

The only change to subs that could be useful is reducing their cost.

Make them cost 200 mass

[Valki]

I thought that (IRL) nuclear subs where much stealthier than diesel powered ones since turbines are in general that much quieter.

Diesel-electric need to surface to recharge their batteries with a "loud" diesel engine, but once underwater in electric mode they are extremely quiet. For one, electric motors are quiet and batteries make no sound at all, but more importantly the electric motor can be turned off. A nuclear sub must always keep the reactors coolant pumps running which is noisy.

[RoLa]

Why not give submerged subs cloaking and stealth like the selen? So they have a first strike advantage. But when they fire (or maybe even when they move) they loose their invisiblity.

And why do all people think there are only diesel-eclectric or nuclear boats. Germany has one of the most advanced subs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

this boat can stay 3 weeks underwater without snorkeling.