why in my oppinion mantei should be nerfed

[Turinturambar]

Mantei are a stron unit. With their 270 Hp and 26.66 dps they are theoretically able 2 get a draw in a 1 v 1 with a striker, while being faster cheaper and having the building assist ability. (a striker got 300 Hp and 24 dps so a mantis survives 11.25 secons in that time a mantis can deal 300 damage => striker dead. The mantis also dies though.)
but the mantis beeing cheaper, faster ect. makes it the stronger unit.
How high level micro tips the balance in that fight i do not know. At my level its quite even.
Also cybran are the only one having t1 gunships and good t1 arty what leaves me guessing what exactly is the real cybran t1 weakness, compensating the mantei strengh.
In a bigger fight mantei are definetly the fafourites. with their lower price (in mass and buildpower) a army of 100 strikers has to face ~108 mantei, a fight they definetly loose. I made a basic mathematical modell, that prooves this thesis and also lez 100 strikers fight 107 mantei. the mantei win. by far.


Mathematical modell:

Itsavery basic one, so i make some (many) simplifying assumptions. There is no thing as overkill. There is perfect focus. Alphastrike is irrelevant.
So the Damage dealt by N Mantei is:

MD = MN*Mdps*dt

Where MD is the damage dealt, MN the number of mantei and Mdps the mantis dps and dt the time the mantei shoot.

The amount of strikers that die in that time is:

SN = MD/SHp = MN*(Mdps/SHp)*dt

Where SHp are the Hp of a Striker.

The equation for the dieing mantei has (obviously) the same structure:

MN = SN*(Sdps/MHp)*dt

There are 2 possible approaches to solve the problem.

1. the nummerical aprroach:

The number of units in the next timeframe is the number of units in the current timeframe minus those who died.

MN(t+dt) = MN - SN*(Sdps/MHp)*dt

SN(dt+dt) = SN - MN*(Mdps/SHp)*dt

The calculation is repeated untill eigher SN or MN is <=0.

With a Strikre Number of 100, a Mantis Number of 107.6923077 and dt = 0.05s the result is , that the mantei win after 21 seconds with 33.6 surviving mantei. (in the "experiment" it were 20-30 if i remember correctly)

2. Analytical approach:

with:

d/dt(SN) = MN*(Mdps/SHp) I
d/dt(MN) = SN*(Sdps/MHp) II

solving this equations takes some time so i only sketch how to solve them (if anyone cares and has a question about it just pm me).

I : d/dt[d/dt(SN)] = d/dt(MN*(Mdps/SHp))

d^2/dt^2(SN) = (Mdps/SHp)*d/dt(MN)
=>
d/dt(MN) = d^2/dt^2(SN)*(SHp/Mdps)

use the exponential approach and the initial conditions for SN, MN, d/dt(SN) and d/dt(MN) and you see that the solution is a hyperbolic function. The result is according with the experimet and the nummerical approach. (if anyone cares i lost it and am to lazy to recalculate it if no one cares).

Conclusion: This seems to proove that mantei are op. So is there some compensation for thatin cybran t1?
If not theMantei should be nerfed, by e.g. :

-increasing their price (mass) orat least in buildpower.
-decreasing their dps about 1 at 25.66 dps
-reducing their Hp about 15
-...


if anyone can make a mod with different valus for Hp, dps,... to test it I would be gratefull.


PS: I only compare mantei with striker because i think striker>thaam and auroras are another topic

[lextoc]

The unit is called Mantis

[Turinturambar]

The unit is called Mantis

plural = mantei? idk

[yeager]

we could give striker/thaam more range to compensate, so cybran keeps God raiding, and good micro still favors mantis, but in a 1v1 the higher mas unit wins (appropriately)

[Myxir]

adding some micro, strikers can win convincibly though (in lower numbers even against auroras)
the difference is that striker's firerate is better suited to the body turning than mantis, which has much more trouble to keep damaging while beeing microed

[TheKoopa]

we could give striker/thaam more range to compensate, so cybran keeps God raiding, and good micro still favors mantis, but in a 1v1 the higher mas unit wins (appropriately)

Alright here's the thing:

Compared to other tanks, mantis are unmicroable

The turret speed is far too low for it to actually use all of its DPS, whereas the thaam, striker, and aurora use it far, far better. Mantis is dps based which is a disadvantage in the early stages when all of the other tanks are alpha-based (think of bricks vs. percy).

They compensate for this by being the fastest, it seems reasonable to me.

You can do calculations all you want but they don't actually work in a real game.

Btw, plural of mantis is mantis.

[Turinturambar]

we could give striker/thaam more range to compensate, so cybran keeps God raiding, and good micro still favors mantis, but in a 1v1 the higher mas unit wins (appropriately)

Alright here's the thing:

Compared to other tanks, mantis are unmicroable

The turret speed is far too low for it to actually use all of its DPS, whereas the thaam, striker, and aurora use it far, far better. Mantis is dps based which is a disadvantage in the early stages when all of the other tanks are alpha-based (think of bricks vs. percy).

They compensate for this by being the fastest, it seems reasonable to me.

You can do calculations all you want but they don't actually work in a real game.

Btw, plural of mantis is mantis.

Unmicroble is exaggerated. I tink a mantis can still do well vs striker. Beeing fast makes also a bit easier to dodge enemy shoots.

[Ceneraii]

To bring back an old famous quote:

"5 mantis against 3 striker? lol desperate"

[yeager]

I like early land right now, but mantis CAN be microed, you just need to dodge one shot and then you can stop and win fine. Also you can't evaded mantis dps like other factions. It would be nice if striker/thaam had better range an mantis had better damage , so it's still a strong raid unit but microed correctly other factions can win larger engagements, idk. Maybe just reduce mantis speed ever so slightly.

[Ceneraii]

In fact, this topic is so ancient it's even part of the faf drinking game

Take a shot every time:

*Noobs complain about Mantis