sACU ras discussion

[Gorton]

Split from RAS discussion

[Deering]

I'd like to see the stat differences of how high mass incomes got before and after the ras preset was introduced. The preset makes it absurdly easy to spit out dozens of ras SCUs which was very difficult to do before not to mention Sera getting left behind since it lacks it.

[Deering]

Convenience makes a difference. Rambo scus are a perfect example. You could build them before the presets and be just as powerful but due to the inconvenience it wasn't really an issue. Please try to think about things before you attempt your condescension.

Very soon after the preset was introduced I heard of games with blackheart having 1.5k mass income augmented by scus. I also watched a replay where apofenas had 140 scus. With assist on the gateway they were producing another scu every 10 seconds or so. I would like to see that matched with static eco.

I was merely interested how often this kind of thing happened before the preset. If you are trying to say convenience has no effect on balance I disagree with you.

[Deering]

I'm glad you don't disagree that convenience is an issue.

All I did was wonder about statistics. It would be interesting to see how or even if it has changed.

[Exotic_Retard]

That would suggest people are lazy

sorry what

people are the laziest thing ever!
this is why ras sacu spam has increased a lot since last patch.

also ras sacu have a few benefits other than being easy to spam so there's that too. you listed most of them.
im not sure if anyone bothers using adjacency bonus for ras sacu but it makes them cheaper and therefore better

however all of that pales in comparison to the fact that for some absurd reason sacu leave wrecks. including the preset values at that.

so, dont worry if someone manages to snipe your 16-19k hp mass fab, because you can reclaim it and only lose 1-2k mass.

i think that using sacu as bait is now a complete thing. because exp prioritize sacu, you just park one in range and get it to spam shields. that's maybe 10 extra seconds of time for your defenders to kill an exp, then you just reclaim the sacu and the 30k mass gift.

this is the advantage over mass fabs. eco that can actually defend itself as well. and when you get 10-20 sacu they even beat an exp on their own, and it hurts 81% less if you lose a couple.


in other news i think that the decision to make sacu reclaimable was the worst one made this patch

[Exotic_Retard]

If you build 20 of them while your opponent has been building exps X mass in non-combat SACU will lose horribly to X mass in land exps.

... well yeah that's obvious
but its not a relevant comparison

if you put x mass into mass fabs and i put x mass into snoops guess whos gonna win? eco isnt really intended for combat.

point is that i can use it inefficiently - we both put y mass into bricks, then we both put x mass into eco - you mass fabs, i scus, you will have a larger mass income but i will win the battle.

but that's not a super great comparison either. what really should be compared is x mass scu + y mass army vs y mass army + army from extra mass that x mass fabs get in z time.
which isn't exactly a super easy thing to compare, so we just need to wait a while for people to realize how they can abuse ras scus, and see if they are actually abusable.
so far we've seen scu spam increase by quite a bit since the patch, which is mostly due to the added convenience

and i wouldn't use them in combat. if you park one in your base under 2 shields it will have lets say 40k hp. just by standing there it draws 10s of ml laser away from t3 units. mass fabs don't do this.

so this means that i can use this to defend my base easier because i can abuse target priority to put damage into something that isnt really defending the base

Spoiler: show

The reclaim was added .. reasons reasons

i know exactly why it was added, but the problem was that the rambo scus got to your base and not that they wouldn't donate mass in the unlikely event that they die
all this changes is i will play slightly more defensively with my scu and then reclaim them to get my mass back if they die (with my conveniently placed nearby scus), so its not even a nerf. (for that you need to make scus decidedly UP, so you can't secure the reclaim in most circumstances) instead it makes them from something different to just a t3.5 unit.
why this was chosen over a numbers nerf is beyond me

TLDR you can use ras scu as shields now, so they are more useful than before.

[Exotic_Retard]

Uh... if I make mass fabs and bricks and you make SCU and bricks I will win by a landslide with the extra mass in bricks I get.

nice statement. id even say its quite accurate. but its not super relevant. im not sure what you understood, so il explain it for you simpler:

scenario 1 shows that scu + 10 bricks > 10 bricks
pretty obvious - i basically meant that you can use scus to defend at least somehow.
scenario 2 shows that scu + 10 bricks > 11 bricks
but scu + 10 bricks < 15 bricks
this was a more realistic scenario that depends on the amount of extra mass generated - the time you + opponent have been ecoing.

this is similar to what you said, but again it puts time in as a factor or it doesn't make much sense.

Spoiler: show

RAS SACU are HORRIBLE in combat for the cost.

as a pure combat unit they are ~8-10 times less efficient than bricks.
just thought you might find this interesting

Spoiler: show

(points at self)

sorry.
but you're not exactly the authority on abuse. or being creative for that matter. you didn't invent the acu tml build, or how to beetle snipe properly and you didn't know that uef shield boats are a major point behind uef naval power until a week ago or w.e.

maybe ask e clan for some guidance?

bearing that in mind i think its safe to say that there are plenty of things that can be abused but haven't been.
also the latest reclaim change means that abusing (ras) scu was far more dangerous before so its likely that option was dismissed in the past.

in any case ive said my point earlier, and with that im leaving this thread:
ras sacu are better than before because reasons, they were also good before because reasons, now imo they are a bit too op and they make the game a litle boring

TLDR: sacu in general need balancing to be more fun, and that also includes ras sacu.

hope this helps

[Iszh]

If you nerf them that a paragon is better than scu (which is already nearly the case) then you can delete scu ras

[zeroAPM]

The paragon can't move, have a lot of hp, build, defend itself or not nuke half your base on death

[quark036]

What if rasCU's didn't leave reclaim? It would make those a bit less of a safe investment, and you could justify it by saying the extra resource generation makes it more volatile