Cybran torpedo on amphibious units

[theeggroll]

There is absolutely no reason to buff Wagner torps. Cybran navy is already potent enough to compensate. I don't see any top naval players taking this seriously and I'd honestly be embarrassed to ask any of them for their opinions.

Seriously, throw in useful input or shut up. Just because players aren't in top 5 doesn't mean they can't have valid opinions, I personally respect Gorton and Apof as very good players.

As an avid Cybran player, the lack of float means that once you are our of the water, there is absolutely no getting back in. Its very frustrating when floaty shit can be out significantly faster than extra frigates, turning the fame very early. (Not a problem on bit maps)

[Apofenas]

Go try Four corners with frigates vs auroras and than last exile or wilderness with frigates vs aurora/zthuuee + blaze/yenzine. And after that try to figure out why frigates lose on such maps.

I'm sure theeggroll didn't speak about losing to hover, but spoke about losing navy in general.

[keyser]

I didn't build rhino at least for a year. Cybran is my most played faction.

well even if rhino is one the worst T2 tank, it's still better suited for most situation. (army fight : better hp/dps for price, don't waste dps/miss, terrain issue rarelly impact in army fight but more when there is few unit i feel like)
you can use wagner for sniping com (less life (doesn't matter since OC), better dps, can finish com underwater sometimes), raid (faster, kill pds), setting trap.

i like the complementarity of those 2 units, i would be annoy if this is broken, even if wagner isn't usefull for navy battle.

[keyser]

Are you saying we should balance for unplayable (bad) maps? That is like saying hover is OP based on a high noon game. UEF has just as much trouble against T1 hover.

Simple fact is that frigates are beat hover hands down mass for mass, cybran especially.

thing is that uef still have T2 hover to get back from a sea lose after losing navy early because of T1 hover on some map. they can turtle/eco and get the sea back, but cybran can't with land facto.

[Mycen]

thing is that uef still have T2 hover to get back from a sea lose after losing navy early because of T1 hover on some map. they can turtle/eco and get the sea back, but cybran can't with land facto.

I don't understand this. There is no T1 hover AA. So why can't Cybran use T1 gunships to defeat T1 hover at that stage?

[keyser]

because on some map you could get fast T1 land to denie navy fast. (you weren't able to get your first frigate out) And you could defend your T1 hover with inte against gunship. it always hard to count on air to balance issue between navy/land unit, since air isn't really reliable.

but the weakness of those few map shouldn't impact the balance of the game. And we should keep wagner as a strong raiding unit imo.

[keyser]

better thing to do to this unit, is to fix it so it can kill aeon T1 pd. atm only aeon T1 pd can't be kill by wagner

[Apofenas]

well even if rhino is one the worst T2 tank, it's still better suited for most situation. (army fight : better hp/dps for price, don't waste dps/miss, terrain issue rarelly impact in army fight but more when there is few unit i feel like)
you can use wagner for sniping com (less life (doesn't matter since OC), better dps, can finish com underwater sometimes), raid (faster, kill pds), setting trap.

i like the complementarity of those 2 units, i would be annoy if this is broken, even if wagner isn't usefull for navy battle.

Wagner:
+Does better against ACU
+Does better on maps with water elements
+Does better on bigger maps
+Leads mantis raids mantis raids
+Keeps up for hoplites
+Can keep up for loyalists
+Doesn't have to kill lines of walls
+Doesn't fight terrain
+Can catch ilshavohs faster
+Doesn't allow range bots to run away
+Can catch and surround harb
Rhino:
+Does a bit better with medusas
+Does a bit better in direct fight
+Doesn't miss
+Causes percival to overkill

I prefer wagner's advantages over rhino advantages.

On High Noon yes, you can deny navy with T1 hover. But any ladder map? No.

Is it only about ladder? I can name a bunch of team game maps where ACU rush with hover leaves you with no navy and less resources right in the beginning of the game and than ACU leaves and you have problems with navy.

And those 1v1 maps i spoke about were removed for a reason: t1 and better t2 hover is insta win. While testing IceDreamer's mod i had 50/50 chances with Wagners vs Riptides on wilderness. Still less against aeon and sera, but i had an option to prevent enemy ACU movements under water and kill groups of auroras 1 by 1 before they reach my mexes, so games lasted untill aeon sub hunters or sera destroyers eliminate wagners/kill torp ACU.

[Apofenas]

It allows you to avoid hover tanks crossing the map gang banging frigates, raiding mexes and pushing your base with ACU. Instead it causes hover to fight with wagners, forces to invest a lot more time and resources into naval play to counter wagners. So yes, losing navy will cause wagners to die and lose you a game. Which is the reason building wagners only will never work; you still have to build your own navy. They will only force heavier naval play from sera/aeon and help to protect themselves or tank damage during naval battles.

[KD7BCH]

Wagners only doesn't work ifc, neither does hover only. I feel like we are arguing the same thing?

Maybe you've noticed that you like to argue?