Air Leverage - Improving Air Gameplay (Mod v6 out now!)

[KD7BCH]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying, or I communicated it poorly. I agree, no one said you should be able to have transports survive asf swarm. When I said "don't have air control" I meant you and your opponent both have air, but neither is in control, or way ahead.

Quotes like

Interceptors will get the Trannys on the way in and the way out, they will kill most of the transports on the way out by design. This will enable more successful drops.

or

Using FBs once ASFs show up, not very effective at all, transports getting wasted in T2 to the tune of 80-90% losses on the first drop or even before the first drop, I mean who the hell wants to take the chance that even with air cover they are going to have a drop go like that, about the only thing you want to send is SACUs if you can afford to send em in, or alternatively T1 arty because you think you are going to lose 9/10 transports.

are what I was basing you wanting drops to be more successful, say if you cover your drops with your air and your opponent has roughly equal air.

If you could give people the benefit of the doubt and not make the worst assumptions about what they say, that would be more constructive-nowhere did I ever say you could fly transports into a 100 asf and survive.

You didn't, BrinkofInsanity did.
viewtopic.php?f=67&t=10325&start=60

[KD7BCH]

V4 changes

Korbah:  UEF/Sera/Cybran t2 FBomber Max Air Speed -> 15 to 17
Korbah:  UEF/Sera/Cybran t2 FBomber Min Air Speed -> 10 to 12
Korbah:  Aeon Swiftwing Air Speed -> 18 to 17
Korbah:  Aeon Swiftwing TurnSpeed -> 1.5 to 2
Korbah:  UEF t2 FBomber TurnSpeed -> 1.5 to 1.25
Korbah:  Sera t2 FBomber TurnSpeed -> 1.5 to 1.1
Korbah:  Cybran t2 FBomber TurnSpeed -> 1.5 to 1
Korbah:  Stationary t2 aa Built time reduced to 75%
Korbah:  Aeon Stationary t2 aa Muzzle Velocity -> 30 to 34
Korbah:  UEF Stationary t2 aa Muzzle Velocity -> 25 to 32
Korbah:  Cybran Stationary t2 aa Muzzle Velocity -> 20 to 28
Korbah:  Seraphim Stationary t2 aa Muzzle Velocity -> 25 to 32
Korbah:  T2 (only) Transport Speed -> 15 to 17
Korbah:  T2/3 Transport HP -> +60% HP
Korbah:  T2/3 Transport Cost -> x2 Mass and Energy, +60% build timer
Korbah:  T3 ASF Cost -> +150 Mass (350 -> 500)
Korbah:  T3 ASF Cost -> +50% build timer (3000 -> 4500)
Korbah:  T3 ASF Speed -> -2 (25 -> 23)
Korbah:  T2 MAA -> Flak AoE all races -1 (4 -> 3)
Korbah:  T2 MAA -> x2 energy cost (800 -> 1600)
Korbah:  Experimental Build Timer Changes:
Korbah:  Monkeylord -> x2 build timer
Korbah:  Soulripper -> x1.5 build timer
Korbah:  Megalith -> x2.1 build timer
Korbah:  Fatboy -> x1.8 build timer
Korbah:  Galatic Colossus -> x1.8 build timer
Korbah:  Ythotha -> x1.9 build timer
Korbah:  Tempest -> x1.5 build timer
Korbah:  Atlantis -> x1.5 build timer

Test 1 Sat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI7gDp5 ... e=youtu.be

[KD7BCH]

2nd Game, much more action, even better air discovery. I think there is an issue with the Sera T2 FB, it doesn't always drop reliably, and seems to have a hard time switching from A<>A to A<>G, are the weapons correctly ordered in the lua file? Or what could be causing that?

Check out this battle, Will be uploading to Video shortly.

Video https://youtu.be/syf--PGwmV4

[KD7BCH]

Having played this version compared to previous version and stock, can tell there is a much lower prevalence of ASF swarming. They are also still very effective but can be countered pretty well between T1/T2 and the SAM/AA threat.

[Korbah]

2nd Game, much more action, even better air discovery. I think there is an issue with the Sera T2 FB, it doesn't always drop reliably, and seems to have a hard time switching from A<>A to A<>G, are the weapons correctly ordered in the lua file? Or what could be causing that?

Thanks for uploading! a lot less ASF swarms that for sure - still plenty there and they obviously work well. However, the fact that gunships and t2FB's actually even got used in T3 on gap is surprising. Both replays show a decent variation in the late game units used - exactly what we're looking for!

As for the notha - that's its stock weapons behaviour. I've only changed movement rates.

[KD7BCH]

I think you can parse that battle for a few days there is so much air action in it.

Is there anything we can do for the Notha? Right now it sucks being unreliable.

[ZenTractor]

Quick question: Why are you changing land-based experimental build times in a balance mod about air balance?

[Korbah]

We're seeing a lot smaller asf swarms and they're really struggling with fast soul rippers etc.

It's easier to just move all the experimental back such that they're not crowding t3 and can review the state of t3

It makes it easier to interpret the balance by having an extra long t3 - they're not necessarily permanent changes.

[KD7BCH]

Having played a stock game against a particularly difficult Restorer player, I think with these changes we have cut the ASF deep enough, it might even be wise to consider finding a bit more conservative cut on the ASFs given their inability to deal with swarms of gunships as they simply don't have the numbers to engage a large massed moving anti air platform.

Using two dozen gunships combined with a half dozen transports armed with MAA would effectively end ASF threat. As they simply would not have the firepower and numbers to stop the gunships and transports, which are effectively countered by SAMs/AAA/MAA.

[Korbah]

There's no need to worry about restorer's - they're almost certainly going to benefit from any ASF nerf as they're designed to be resilient to ASF.

Restorers are still primarily a gunship - they're just better at warding off ASF attacks. They're not suited to countering strats/FB's etc due to their slow speed.

Should restorers prove too strong it is very easy to reduce their AA dps to a more appropriate level. They're essentially a "terminal balance" unit and thus easy to balance compared to the ASF.

What's more important is how ASF perform against the other 2 heavy gunships with their modest AA values. We need to look at this.


Considering gunships and defending against them with land - what is interesting is the discrepancy between t3 sams and t3maa. Given the mass investment SAMS have considerable advantages in terms of durability - they can usually survive 2 strat hits with their 7k hp vs 2k for t3maa for a very similar cost. Now obviously there's arguments between static vs mobile - the question is whether the current balance is appropriate and do t3maa perform well enough.

It'd be nice to have t3maa included into the unit databases - I think the honeymoon period that ze_pilot wanted to protect is now over (he didn't want people to know unit stats)