navy balance and hover

[yeager]

lol your missing the point: nothing the seraphim have can counter cybran subs in a real life scenario

[yeager]

Look at it like this:
Frigate: seraphim<cybran
Sub:seraphim<cybran
Destroyer: seraphim>cybran
Cruiser: seraphim<cybran (flak is better but all things considered the cybran version is better)
Sera destroyer<cybran subhunter
Seraphimt3 subhunter< cybran subhunter
Torpedo bombers: seraphim<cybran
Gunship: seraphim<cybran
Torpedo defense structures: seraphim<cybran
Battleship: seraphim<cyban
Carrier: seraphim>cybran (although cybran wins in a fight)
Seraphim t1-t2 hover < cybran gunships
Seraphim t1-t3 hover: gunships(t2and t3) also counterable by microed destroyers
Seraphim water exp<cybran water exp
So and so fourth, I'll end it with this
Cybran subhunter>any seraphim naval unit except torpedo defense structures and torp bombers
Cybran destroyer> seraphim torpedo defense structures
And there are plenty of ways so counter torp bombers
See what I'm saying here?

[Iszh]

seraphim t3 shield on water >>> cybran

as seraphim i would complain mostly about the poor anti air of cruisers.

[yeager]

Issues with this include but are not limited to:
Seraphim shield doesn't work when assisting: battle ships, cruisers, destroyers etc without shiz loads of micro, the recharge rate is awful, it works well with hover but even then cybran gunships tear it up. Not to mension you need to build an entire separate factory, have loads of extra e, and in subhunter vs subhunter somehow be the God of all micro and even then I'm not sure it's cost effective

[yeager]

I'm not saying cybrans need a huge nerf, but the stupidity is in the fact that a t2 unit is cost effective vs it's t3 counter part, that's like if I gave ilshavohs stealth and took Omani out of the game, bricks and percivals would always lose to them, and it's the same deal here, the cybran t2 sub shouldn't be cost effective vs seraphim, it was never meant to be that way, cybrans are either supposed to beat seraphim early game or with harms. If you wanna talk hover remember they are probably gonna get A nerf due to all the whining, and what is hover supposed to do before the t3 shield? Or what about the fact that the cybran destroyer/mermaid combo beats it on big maps? And does this mean seraphim just shouldn't build much naval and should always use hover? Cause I can garuntee that is not how it is supposed to work :/ also what is hover to stop experimentals in the water? Or nuclear subs? Not only that it's barely cost effective vs cybran navy, I personally feel like it's all not working right

[Ionic]

Full T2 cybran subs can be a deadly surprise.. I have a few funny stories. Just like I have stories of stealth bases and TML's.

But the vast majority of times, you are an idiot if you build subs. Except T3 Subs.

A battleship can ground fire 10-15 subs, a teammate can build T3 torps if you have hover the torps will get 10 passes, kill every sub. The air wouldn't dare fly over 1/5 the mass of the subs in flak.

[yeager]

I just said mermaids cause they came to mind first and cause they are a better companion vs subs cause of the torp def, don't be a jerk (I know we're arguing but everyone's friends here ), also it doesn't make the point any different, and sure, the same amount of ilshavohs can kill there equivalent in percivals(not sure if that one specifically is true but ou get it), but in they won't have full fire power when they are done, and take too long to mass up like that(not to mention the range advantage that can be exploited more if percivals run away) but neither of these apply to cybran, it is very, very rare that space is an issue with subs and they can be built quickenough to work well, also vs an unmicroed subhunter they lose no damage

[yeager]

Full T2 cybran subs can be a deadly surprise.. I have a few funny stories. Just like I have stories of stealth bases and TML's.

But the vast majority of times, you are an idiot if you build subs. Except T3 Subs.

A battleship can ground fire 10-15 subs, a teammate can build T3 torps if you have hover the torps will get 10 passes, kill every sub. The air wouldn't dare fly over 1/5 the mass of the subs in flak.

Yeah, rarely does anyone go ALL subs but it's the same deal in most cases(if both teams put the same amount of Eco into cruisers destroyers etc it is the same result, you just left less mass to be put into subs)

[ZenTractor]

Cruiser: seraphim<cybran (flak is better but all things considered the cybran version is better)

I don't think this is a fair comparison. You build each ship for different reasons. The cybran unit adds its dps to naval direct fire engagements, whereas the seraphim cruiser is massively superior when it comes to bombarding a base. However, if you're talking about a direct naval-on-naval fight, then if your cybran opponent is building cruisers for damage, you can beat him by spending the same amount of mass on more of your destroyers. Sure, you build both for Anti-air, but you yourself said that seraphim beat out cybran there.

[yeager]

Truth, I just sai cybran cause it is a better all rounder and has better health+refueling station (that no one uses) etc