T2 Bomber Suggestion

[Iszh]

Will make it short.

Issues:
-t3 Bomber rush can hardly be stopped if you do t2 planes as air player
-T2 bombers are nearly no option in team games like wonder or pyramid except mabye sometimes cybran

Measure:
-Increse speed of all t2 fighter/bombers from 15 to 18 like swift wind (thats 20% more speed)
-increase cost of all t2 fighter/bombers by 10% E and mass (values can be adapted)

Outcome:
-People are able to stop a t3 rush with lots of t1 and t2 planes as well since the t2 bombers have same speed like a t3 bomber they can kill it like swift wind
-Increases the general ability to fight a t3 bomber on the map without ridiculous huge balance changes
-It is possible for everybody to stop a t3 bomber everywhere on the map not just in a small area next to aa defense if enemy has not enough asf

Risks:
-Cybran t2 bomber which is already a good snipe weapon will be slightly op with this 20% more speed
-t1 interceptors have much bigger problems to stop t2 bombers

I had this idea just as an suggestions if somebody will tell me that it is shit and/or completely out of any balance then i am fine with it. But pleasea have a constructicve discussion. I personally dont think that for sera or uef bomber it will be a huge deal. both of them cant really snipe somebody so easy like cybran one. On the other hand i dont want to nerf or reduce something from cybran bomber since it has nearly no aa damage. Maybe cybran players would prefer to let their t2 bomber stay like it is. But for sera and uef i seriously hope that this could be an opntion to use the good aa guns and their life better.

[ZenTractor]

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it solves the problem. I've been thinking a lot about air balance in general, so I might as well voice the relevant ideas here.

T2 fighterbombers must have an annoying cost because they can do so much damage and are good sniping tools, be it for power, mass or commanders. The ability to blow things up in one pass is powerful and you have to pay for it.

But why do they have so much damage? I think it's because of T2 ground unit HP. If they want to be as effective at killing T2 ground as T1 bombers are at killing T1 ground, then they need bomb damage that is in the order of 1k. This will kill off utility units like MMLs, engies and rangebots, and will heavily damage T2 tanks. Unfortunately while factory hp scales up with tech level, mass extractors and power generators do not. While it still takes about three bombers to kill a pgen at both T1 and T2, losing a T2 power generator is a much, much bigger thing than losing 1-3 T1 power generators.

If fighterbombers were viable anti-air units too they would be good at air dominance and then sniping. This means that if you win air at T2 not only do you win air and are able to support your troops with fire, you would also have a free shot at taking out most of your opponents economy.

There are other factors at play that push us into this situation too: Mobile flack and T3 mobile AA are very very strong, and their stationary counterparts are relatively weak. This means that, again, if your opponent has AA he likely has mobile AA, and if you have a choice between throwing your bombers away taking out his army or his economy, the correct choice will almost always be the latter.

Honestly, I don't know what a good solution is. I don't think tweaking around a few numbers will be sufficient, as I think the problem is rather much bigger than simple efficiency.

As a side note, further reasoning down this line lead me to what is more or less a total air rework/rebalance, which I had hoped to put into a mod so that it could be discussed, but I still can't figure out supcom coding.

[Zock]

As a side note, further reasoning down this line lead me to what is more or less a total air rework/rebalance, which I had hoped to put into a mod so that it could be discussed, but I still can't figure out supcom coding.

Maybe you can interest one of the guys who are doing balance mods for your ideas. It would be very nice to have one or more mods with good air-reworks that can be tested and validated over time.

[TheKoopa]

And destroy faction diversity in t2 air?

Sure, t2 bombers need a speed buff but they should not have swift wind speed, as that's what makes swift winds an optimal choice (I'm fairly sure the UEF bomber actually better at killing inties than swift winds, damage-wise).

[zeroAPM]

And destroy faction diversity in t2 air?

Sure, t2 bombers need a speed buff but they should not have swift wind speed, as that's what makes swift winds an optimal choice (I'm fairly sure the UEF bomber actually better at killing inties than swift winds, damage-wise).

Funny, i always thought that the Uef T2 F/B should be a pure bomber like the A-10 since UEF=Space America

[yeager]

Just because a unit is as fast in comparison doesn't mean faction diversity is out the window,honestly I like this idea, and hey, of you want to you make swift winds slightly faster, it's not the end of the world.
All things considered Id prefer making strats slower but giving them more hp, so flak is more effective but they aren't useless

[Ithilis_Quo]

increase speed and cost, will not help.... imagine T2 bomber that cost 570m firint asf that cost 350m and where against asf/swifts hard lose. against start it can work, but its too expensive to be used against air. And also only move strat problem on T2 where same problem will be with uncachanble T2 bombers. Proper way is decrese start bomber speed, and make t2 bomber cheaper with same AA and less ground dame, then they can fight against few T3 air, and make some kine of reason why build them against air, not only for snipes..

try how it work on equilibrium, i guess it work pretty well.

[=M.V.K.=]

T2 against ground would be for the loss and since Air is only supported by base ground the gain would be then just for Air alone..yes??

[Iszh]

If i would have to make an air new balance mod i would try to keep the number of changes low and reach maximum.

Thoughts before:
t1 bombers can be killed by stat t1,t2 and t3 aa ground --- and t1,t2 and t3 aa planes
t2 bombers can be killed by stat t1,t2 and t3 aa ground --- and t1,t2 and t3 aa planes
t3 bombers can be killed by stat t3 aa ground --- t3 aa planes (exception swift wind)

something looks wrong in this tech level matrix in my opinion

Proposal what should be reached in order not to get OP weapons:
t1 bombers can be killed by stat t1,t2 and t3 aa ground --- and t1,t2 and t3 aa planes
t2 bombers can be killed by stat t1,t2 and t3 aa ground --- and t1,t2 and t3 aa planes
t3 bombers can be killed by stat t2 and t3 aa ground --- t2 and t3 aa planes

The jump from t2 to t3 is to big there is no t2 aa weapon which can kill t3 more or less acceptable way. Every tech level bomber should be possible to be destroyed by 1 lower tech level weapons. Stationary t2 aa guns have nearly no use in the game.

Changes i offer:
-Increase speed of t2 bombers to t3 bomber speed
-Increase bullet speed of t2 stat aa guns that they will hit t3 bombers more serious

After this you will have even 2 options to stop a t3 bomber. And the problem that t2 bombers could be now op since the most likely will not be hit so drastically by t1 aa guns anymore is also solved. t2 stat aa guns when hitting plane units with speed of t2/t3 bombers will smash those t2 bombers with low life. The price will do its job to avoit an op unit. 500 mass for t2 fighter bomber.

-Price would force people to still use t1 inties for aa meanwhile the t2 could do special jobs like killing a single t3 bomber
-t2 bombers could be used alike t3 bombers means finally really like bombers
-t3 bomber rush can be stopped by any player land or air in teamgames since there are 2 easy options
-underused units like t2 stat aa and t2 fighter bombers are back in game

If it will really come to the point that t2 bombers do to much damage then you can maybe increase the speed of inties 1 by 1 until it will not be imba anymore and even if we had to change them from 15 to 16 should be ok. i really would like to test this but doubt i will be ever able to find somebody for such a mod to play. And yes i know that those t2 bombers look like swiss army knifes but the price and vulnerablillity of them will reduce this enough. In big teamgames late game when asf are flying are only t1 and t3 bombers used. This upgrade for t2 bombers might enable new options for cheaper attacks on low life targets. The advantage of SAMS compared to t2 stat aa guns will still be more precise damage and they can easily kill asf.

[Ithilis_Quo]

The main problém of tihs is that it move stat problem on t2 and agaist early Janus ,that completly wipe-out enemy energie will not exist weapon that will stop HIM.

IF you want i can make mod with tis numero for you, it can on štart loock better, because it fix strat problém, but that would Be only on tíme When someone Will diskové how op early t2 bombe is and create new post about fix t2 bombers....