T2 Bomber Suggestion

[Iszh]

Somehow reading your expectations to what would or could happen you did not understand what those proposed changes are for. 50 ASF and 50 f/bomber should definately not meet lol. Thats like you are telling 50 obsidian tanks meet 50 percivals and percivals should win. Those offered changes should only make t2 air really worth a t2 air and demand a reaction from enemy player like it is with t2 land. If enemy got t2 land you are forced to do this as well or you will lose. With air thats atm completely different if enemy got t2 air well who cares get enough of t1 inti or just a few t1 aa guns and a shield and everything is great. Thats not ok. Even for 1v1 games the suggestions made here are useful in my opionion cant understand this resistance. They will not be killers of t3 air they are ALWAYS WORSE than swift winds are now. Aeon will still have the best aa because a 250 mass swift wind cant compete with a 200 mass swift wind dont you think so?

[Turinturambar]

all my resistance is vs the idea 2 change fb from bomberfocus 2 fighterfocus (t1 bomberdmgidea)
a little higher speed could be a good idea+static aa buff.
i just doubt some t2 fb could prevent an early enemy strat (since building those will also delay you giving your opponent time to build some more asf for his strat.
there a buff for static could help a lot too for the rest of the team.
the only case where i can immagine them (the changed version) being of real use 2 intercept is a 20x 20 map.

[Ithilis_Quo]

I already fix this issue, but this comunity, would rather cry about how is this game bad balnced as play balanced version...

So i dont care, continue crying.


And again, you use example of bad balance t2 fbs that is shit. when you balance is well then its not shit. and can compte.
at first think about price... asf 350m t2 420m then asf 2xmore hp/speed 2,5x dmg...

[Iszh]

I only made suggestions for a beta maybe a speed increase is just enough might be true

I simply tried to watch it from all side possible and bring in all possible idea here which could be helpful. And in fact it is true watching those bombers that the aa gun if completely useless and it is overpriced atm for its use. Speed increase for example would buff anti ground and anti air abilities together maybe then it is worth its cost. Just atm it is not.

[yeager]

Ithilis, balance is about slow steady change to find out what works and what doesn't, not just cram every idea you have ever had into 1 mod while taking all faction diversity and making it a "take it or leave"
no one can actually work out your mod cause you have to relearn a lot of the game, and if you don't like something then that sucks, cause you won't budge, but would rather insult the guys being reasonable like Iszh here

[Ithilis_Quo]

Ithilis, balance is about slow steady change to find out what works and what doesn't, not just cram every idea you have ever had into 1 mod while taking all faction diversity and making it a "take it or leave"
no one can actually work out your mod cause you have to relearn a lot of the game, and if you don't like something then that sucks, cause you won't budge, but would rather insult the guys being reasonable like Iszh here

At first im not insulting Iszh. Im insulting folks that cry on 18 pages about how its not working and why none do something with it. Iszh was do something with it. Maybe its not ideal, its different as what i was do with it, but it doesnt matther, and mean that its bad, its 4x better as it actual. And did you know how many people play iszh fix ? I know 0.

At second when i start moding, i make multiple mods that was focus only on single thinks that was try to make game better (hover rework, cancer fix, submarine warfare), similar as iszh with t2 air. Did you know how many people play it? I know 4 (me tokyto, retard, rumadai). So i throu this idea and make this game that good as i can. And did you know how many play it? I dont, but its more as when it was separete.

At three Faction diversity in my mod is deeper as in standard, onece i was desribe you it on very long post, i will dont repeat it for you when you ignore it. In normal is most deep faction diversity on serafin, that are diverse because suck at t3 extremly hard every time.

at four From one time where people start pising in forum, how its "total different game" and need relearn whole game i star ask people after game, what they found as different. Already have about 10 screnshot where people for this simply question give me answers:
"i saw that its with mod, but forgot about it, what is different?" jacktequila
"no i didnt notice" Capitainchlorgas
"no, i had a bit more power maybe.. i didnt realize but i dont have a keen eye on these kinds of things yet" ThermoNuc
"except a power stal at the start.. and yes changed mantis icon, its good change" JaggedAppliance
"what was this balance change, i didnt notice" SpdyGonzales
"hmm not realy" EcoGuy
"I watched the replays (what i send him), jast a normal game in my eyes, you dont change enought to have a mod author avatar" Voodoo
"f*** YOU" SEKELFRAER

especialy voodoo was interesting, i was need convice him for 4 days that its real mod that change something and give me mod author avatar, after watching 2 replays where bouth was more as half hour long he didnt notice taht something is diferent. Voodoo, master player.... ..And 8/10 others player that realy play it and mostly not realize. Thats is.

at fifthly When was rumadai complain about energy cost that make him unhappy, i resetup a lot of units to make it more pleasure for him. When sheeo was change cybran tml and say me that its better i change it, becasue its better, when apofenas was complaining about range bots i spend 4 days working on range bots to make them better, when exotic retard say me that some of my change is retarded, then i change it and dont care when it cost me week of work. Already Icedreamer make veterancy mod, that its based on my system, and when he finish it i integrate it, becasue its better. What did you say that its bad and should be better? Give me arguments and it would be real, tomorow, not after 3 mounth (when you are lucky) So dont talk trash about how "I won't budge"

At sixtly None here test this game as i, no-one. I multiple test from every parspecite to found what is work, and what not. and integrate only that what is working. Im not guesing, im testing. This is also reason why this discusion is so hard pointless, becasue here nearly none test what they are talking about.

[Exotic_Retard]

things i can confirm, and
"f*** YOU" SEKELFRAER

this... : D : D

without a doubt the most fantastic review ever witnessed

[Ithilis_Quo]

things i can confirm, and
"f*** YOU" SEKELFRAER

this... : D : D

without a doubt the most fantastic review ever witnessed

But maybe it was secter language with a message:





Whoo know..

[Iszh]

Just wanted to remember what was the problem with air. Here in this replay you can see the problem like nowhere else. #4040482 two nearly equal air players meet each other. they have same time results more or less for building ras and air fac. One of them is a few seconds to late with asf --> gg. I understand that 1v1 players here will cry again thats not our problem and they are right, but teamgames with dedicated air positions are part of this game and since it seems to be not working as smooth as it should be there is a problem with air no matter if it influences 1v1 or not.

The problems i ve seen are basically two:

1.) Air players cant really be disturbed while teching since t1 aa can be spammed easy with lots of engis and will grant a 99% safety from t1 and t2 air. Rushing t2 air will lead to a lose since you cant harm the enemy player enough and will fall behind -> gg.

2.) There is no way to defend vs t3 air except you have t3 yourself. Definition of defend means to be able to shoot those bombers and not only scare them away because they will simply fly to a weaker enemy and kill him easy -> gg.

My suggestion was to fulfil the logic system alike land t1<t2<t3 but in high numbers of lower tech you always have t1>t2 and t2>t3 to protect from rush. Zock noticed that the t2>t3 land is already broken because it is nearly impossible with t2 units to kill a t3 harb rush if the t2 units are not called ilshavoh. With air it is even more extreme since only aeon has a t2 aa fighter which is needed to kill a t3 bomber. They dont have good t2 planes to harm enemy air player as well. Ground aa guns do not exist which can serious harm a t3 bomber. You can spam t1 aa guns and shields. I thought to create the ability to have more t2 aa planes with light ground better aa dps and speed damage would at least make all factions able to fight a t3 bomber. They will of course not win because the bomber is protected by early asf spam. Here the second thing which is needed and will again solve 2 problems at once. Buff t2 stationary aa and t3 sam. t2 stat aa will have small splash and basically be t3 sera sam with lower dps and range. they can hit and scare asf and if the ground guy has a shield he can survive and scare the asf and kill the bomber with t2 planes and the aa guns. If you want to nerf t3 bomber that it cant win the game you will have to nerf it to much and make it useless ... the sam buff would include a big splash for sam which had the t2 aa before to protect better from big bomber snipes and scare asf clouds more efficient and be able to fight gunships. On t2 stage you still have mobile t2 aa for splash.

1.) buffing t2 air planes
-be able to shoot a t3 bomber with speed and mass cost effective
-be able to disturb enemy air player while teching

2.) buffing t2 and t3 stationary aa
-t2 is able to hurt a t3 bomber mass effective with every shot but doesnt become op and killt it in one pass. Even with four of such guns it would manage a second drop
-t3 is able to prevent easy air snipes and is much better vs t3 air

Side effect is that the improved t2 stationary aa would be also good and stop the t1/t2 bombers better than t1 aa and remove this weird t1 aa spam. For 1v1 games that would also be an improvement, t2 air would be more important. in lots of 1v1 games 1700+ i watch sometimes lots of them replays there is used only t1 air and maybe t2 gunships sometimes protected by t1 air. Except gunships and desperate torpedo bombers vs navy you can hardly see t2 air even in 1v1 games. To change the t2 planes would also bring more variety to 1v1. So far nobody has given me really a serious offer how to solve it on a different way without nefing t3 to death. i Kow i am repeating what i told before but always in a different way (maybe better overview) in the hope sombody will be convinced finally

And of course if somebody can offer me a better solution to solve the problem which is shown in this replay i am happy to get a suggestion.

[Korbah]

The problems i ve seen are basically two:

1.) Air players cant really be disturbed while teching since t1 aa can be spammed easy with lots of engis and will grant a 99% safety from t1 and t2 air. Rushing t2 air will lead to a lose since you cant harm the enemy player enough and will fall behind -> gg.

2.) There is no way to defend vs t3 air except you have t3 yourself. Definition of defend means to be able to shoot those bombers and not only scare them away because they will simply fly to a weaker enemy and kill him easy -> gg.

.....

And of course if somebody can offer me a better solution to solve the problem which is shown in this replay i am happy to get a suggestion.

1) make transports in T2 dangerous (ie. able to reliably make ballsy drops). It means that an unprotected tech to t3 could be a game ending mistake with a smart T2 drop.

2) Soft countering T3 w/ T2 air and static T2 flak. If T3 is appropriately costed then the ramp up to critical mass of units will be able to be weathered by a committed T2 air player until they have their own T3 at a reasonable time.


I've addressed both these points in Air Leverage v5 which I invite you to trial and offer thoughts/criticisms