Equilibrium

[IceDreamer]

A balance mod shouldn't need PR, the changes should speak for themselves...

[Ithilis_Quo]

theeggroll, can you be more concrete about backdown faction diversity and increase boringnes? To by honest I dont know why you see that faction diversity is lowered. One of my goal was make faction diversity bigger, and built them on different units and tactics instead of different OP thins that are abuse for win.

what i do for more faction diversity:

Spoiler: show

- T1 have different game style by faction, main tanks are different, and different more as was even before.
.uef have more expensive (60m) but stronger tank, that is not excelent in speed,
.cybran have very cheap (45m) that is very fast, and can be easy spam for put mantis feet on every place of map
..cybran but have also mobile AA (40m) that can toggle weapon for land, and then have same range as aurora/T2 (23r) units and get plenty of dps
...cybran can combine it with medusa that have stun, that also stun T3 units
.aeon have aurora that have lowered faction diversity, and is slithli worse as was before, have less range (23) and more overkill [from feedback i need loock more on aurora]
.seraphim have also different tank, with is mix simmilar as striker but cheaper and faster.

-T2 change mongoose for units that is different as is hoplite, its no more 2 range bot that is same only one is ussles becasue miss as hell
- make hover tank not be ussles on land and op on water, and every hover tank is different

t3
seraphin have units with cloac, that is visible on terain (sniper+shield) +t3spy plane

AIR:
t1 bomber
aeon cost more as others, and have huge dmg on small palce and emp that is not ussles as before
cybran is better in general and its different version of sera bomber,
sera take middle damage on huge place
uef is excelent against stationar objects.
t2 gunships
aeon are cheap,weak and fast ideal for raiding, need emp from t1 bomber to be effective agaisnt army with aa
uef have plenty of dps and transport function
cybran have aoe and bigger range
sera is most expensive and strongest
t3
cybran have full stealth t3 air
spy planes are different by factions

naval
t2
aeon destroyer have more aoe as others (becasue projectil is big as cow, and becasue aeon dont have units for bombard land on t2)
t3
cybran batleship galaxy have more range so now every batleship have different range
cybran t3 sub is different as othrs its cheaper and also good for naval fight, nuke is different as others with different use - cause less dmg, but provide long emp (25s) that is in midle of navy vs navy fight more effective as others sub nuke, and less when are no units around that can profit from enemy in stun

IceDreamer:

Personally, I think that T1/T2 should compete, T2/T3 should compete, and T3/T4 should compete, and that T1/T3 and T2/T4 should be an absolute and catastrophic slaughter.

This is not working, and never was working.
-T1 maybe can compete with T2, but only on moment when T2 dont have enought units, then its T1 slaughter and ussles.
-More obvious it is on situation where is T2 against T3 on this moment is T2 absoluthly ussles, and dont have any chance compte. Only T3 that dont slaughter T2 is T3 that is total not ussed basicaly for "bad balance" reason, and that units are titan and outhum.
- on T3 against T4 it again doesnt work, because for time that you need for build experimental you have no chance build enought t3 units. For example did you know how many mass for build time of megalith you can tranform into you units on factory? 3 bricks ! that is 10% of mega cost for same build time. how can 3 brick compte against megalith? on T4 it is mostly about spam experimental and op sacu, you can not even think about mix upper tech with actual.

you defend something that doesnt work..

My fundamental change dont hurt game that much as you imagine from reading changelog. What is sad because that was my plane, but still T1 cant comte against T3, and T2 will not hurt T4. But dont make them stronger. What is big differences, becasue can be at least as projectile catcher and boos ego when imagine what must see enemy on radar.

[IceDreamer]

The fact it isn't quite right at the moment does not mean that the concept is wrong! That thing you quoted was my ideal game state, what I'd like to see, even if the real game were like your mod! It was a concept. The fact is, what I described is how SupCom has always been, and it's a big reason I enjoy this game. All that is needed to get even closer to the situation I described is a few changes here and there, not an entire redesign of the game.

This is what you need to get: For me, and many others, the game IS working as it is, because they enjoy it the way it is! Ultimately this is a game, and it's about what people enjoy. This is, and always will be, an opinion. I consider the current gameplay and plan more to my liking than your proposal, and that's just the way it is.

What is needed in my view, for my vision?

Nerf SCUs to fix them VS T3
Nerf Experimental vet stupidity and BuildTimes to fix the T3/T4 balance
Buff Othuum to correct Sera imbalance, but only slightly
Perhaps find a way to promote mixing of T2 armies more heavily. T2 Tank spam VS T3 bot spam doesn't work, no, but a properly mixed T2 army with tanks, bots, MMLs, and shields can attack into T3 for long enough for you to rectify your tech deficit.
Perhaps do something about super-early Strats

Apart from these, there are no more BIG balance issues IMO. There are things I'd LIKE to do, units I'd LIKE to buff so they see more use (T2 Arty), but those are just small things... Nothing that needs such a radical redesign of the whole game.

[Ithilis_Quo]

The fact it isn't quite right at the moment does not mean that the concept is wrong!

At the moment? This moment is 8 years long. And i think that im first who was even try push situation from "it isn't quite right" to something more as "right".

to be honest change as something here and something there are blind decision that are only guessing and then it is on opinion of creator, or its pointles change that dont solve any situation. dont take it personal but last version of your mod what is base on something here and something there have whiteout my play less play as my mod. Bouth numbers are extremly low, but dont thorw my concept because I dont do it with yours. As you see your concept doesnt work.

[IceDreamer]

*Sigh*

You're never going to get it

The iterative way I like changes to be made does work for me.
The way the tech levels in the game right now interact does work for me.

Your proposals and changes turn the program into a fundamentally different feeling experience in gameplay. You clearly prefer it. I do not. I never will.

You can't use logic, numbers, and mathematics to change how someone feels about something.

The thing is, I doubt I'm the only one who feels this way.

[Ithilis_Quo]

I only take your word and show you that you are talkig about something that is not reality. becasue reality is different

And then you are talking about my fundamental base, what is still not reality in my mode. but reality in my mode is much closer on your word how you imagine game.

isnt is even funny?

[theeggroll]

Oh i see what you mean. thats pretty awesome, but I think you're doing a little too much of it. Having units here and there who are slightly more powerful aren't ALL bad, unless they are rambo scu's and they're just insanely powerful. Some of this negatism is salt towards you removing some of my favorite features about some of my favorite units

[Apofenas]

You added faction diversity in some cases, but removed it in others; In some cases your faction diversity looks like #1 unit has less *insert stat here* than #2 unit, but they both have same *insert stat here* per mass. You removed some imbalances of FAF, but added new ones: medusa stun t3, ML nerf, cloak to fire beetle and snipers, ect.

Spoiler: show

Don't try to explaim me why and how you did it, i won't change my mind as i looked through all stats

As Mozart said, you changed units that did not need a change at all. Your mod is like calculator that refuses to have numbers that don't end on 0 or 5. At least i hope everything is calculated well enough not to create balance issues (for example t1 tank balance seems questionable for me). I mentioned only some of the things i dislike, there are also a lot of things that could make it into FAF balance(for example t2 arty seems to be done very well).
Btw, it seems you already calculated nomad unit stats. If you would get them in your mod, i would be up for playing it more and sending feedbacks.

[Ithilis_Quo]

i know that dont change your mind, but still expain why and how i did that what you say i do.

Yes i calcul every number about "this stat is bigger as this, and this is smaller, but this x this is eqaul for 1mass". Of course i do! otherwise i would create units that are too weak or too strong for price that cost, otherwise i creat mod that is not balanced where one faction would have units that dont woth price and other would rule. Otherwise i would creat new outhums and new uef sacu.
But what you forgot to say is on with units i do it. So i do it only on units that i change, other units have same kind of number balance, becasue game in general is balanced for mass cost.


I do this kind of number balance on:
t1 land - becasue creat new diversity concept and need have it balanced
t3 titan/loyalist - becasue was not builded and especialy titan ussles (loyalist isnt ussles only because have emp)
outhum/harb - becasue outhum is ussles, and harb rule everything that isnt percival or brick

on all other units this kind of balance was before me. so what is going on ?

Spoiler: show

to be honest ML is not nerfed. compare it with others exp and T3 units. 40000hp/3800dps=10,5s vs 60000hp/4400dps =13,6s or 85000hp/4400dps=19,3s vs 40000hp/2500dps=16s, ML cost 29% less vs normal game situation 45000/2500=18s vs 100 000hp/4400dps =22,7s

T3 units have 30% less hp and 25%less dps. Yes it have bigger build time, and its build later, but this is same for every experimental. It can looks like it have big build time, but T3 enginer or hive cost much less. few hives build monkylod in very fast mode and then face weaker T3 units.

Why i change it - becase i see game where can T3 have some place in lategame more interesting as lategame that is only about spaming experimental what then lead to spaming sacu. Experimental are come later and are not so stupid easy to build (mega for time as 3 bricks) but are bigger threat when are done, becase T3 is weaker in general.
Reason why i make T3 weaker is that then T2 cant comte agaisnt T3. everything that is not perci/brick cant stay against harbringer, percival kill everything, way how stop percival is only experimental of op sacu. sacu then total negotiate every t3 fight... So i found this as more interesing gameplay

Nomads stat i dont have already calculed, but im operating with version where nomads would be inside, but for it need Brute51 be online,I must have talk with him about that and after it make stast for nomads with my pattern is not so hard.

[Apofenas]

Yes i calcul every number about "this stat is bigger as this, and this is smaller, but this x this is eqaul for 1mass". Of course i do! otherwise i would create units that are too weak or too strong for price that cost, otherwise i creat mod that is not balanced where one faction would have units that dont woth price and other would rule. Otherwise i would creat new outhums and new uef sacu.

It isn't only being balanced with one unit of one faction against other unit of other faction. For example othuum, that you mentioned. It should be balanced so Othuums would lose(not a lot) to percivals themselves, but Othuums+t3 shields would win (not alot) Percivals+t2 shields having same mass cost on both sides. Because it's T3 unit+T3 unit vs T3.5 unit+T2 unit. Instead in your balance othuums can now compite against percivals, but when you take shields into account, uef t2 can get 7.5k more shield HP for same mass.

to be honest ML is not nerfed. compare it with others exp and T3 units. 40000hp/3800dps=10,5s vs 60000hp/4400dps =13,6s or 85000hp/4400dps=19,3s vs 40000hp/2500dps=16s, ML cost 29% less vs normal game situation 45000/2500=18s vs 100 000hp/4400dps =22,7s

ML will now be falling to 3 overcharges + 4k damage from anything(even t1 units since veterancy isn't problem). It's just became easier to kill ML with 2 or probably even 1 (gun+shield) ACU even though ACU stats vere changed a little.

But what you forgot to say is on with units i do it. So i do it only on units that i change, other units have same kind of number balance, becasue game in general is balanced for mass cost.

Take spearhead for example. In your balance mod it costs 532 mass just because you wanted it to cost equal as absolver or sera t3 shield. You also adjusted its DPS to 300(less dps per mass than was). So now you need to invest 30% more mass to overwhelm tmd. You also removed natural HP advantage of this unit compare to t3 arty which is really usefull both in standing turtle war and in mobile group with percies. Didn't think about that?