Equilibrium

[Blodir]

In short the main problem this mod tries to solve is imbalances between tech levels. Everything smaller scale is relatively easy to deal with.

I prefer a game where every unit is equally viable. There is more all-round units and there is units for more specific cases, the winning player should use them in harmony constantly countering their opponent and introducing them to new threats. You should be able to sit behind your walls if you'd like or demolish your enemies with aggressive rushes, tech for few big units, or depend on numbers to achieve victory. Every strategy has their counter and key to victory is figuring out how to deal with each particular circumstance in the most efficient fashion. That is the game I want to play, that game is not "Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance" as it is.

Maybe you prefer a game with less strategic variety, that's okay, this mod is not for you.

I would like to add that sticking to the iterative progress that we've had over years, in this game and many others is probably for the best...

As to why many other games seem to use iterative balancing process (and I say seem because every game has gone through big changes before release)... I can name at least three reasons for that. Firstly most games are balanced better than FA out of the box so no big changes are required. Secondly most games don't have the resources for anything more than small changes past the release date. Thirdly game designers are extremely cautious about doing big changes after already shipping the game and for a good reason too, just look at FAF, every time someone suggests a change they get overwhelmed with flame. People don't want to relearn the game and fear it will just get worse from any change. It's acceptable to think this way, but don't imply it has something to do with the changes being "bad" - don't talk about shit you have no clue about - like Exotic_Retard said, you can't just skim through extensive patchnotes and give your so very "intelligent" opinion on them. Balance is not simple, don't treat it as such.

That being said there is something worth fighting for in this mod. It's an honest attempt at solving some of the underlying problems within FA balance. While Ithilis might not be able to communicate his ideas very eloquently, his work in this mod is admirable and truly better than any superficial "nerf this buff that" attempt at balance. This is a rework on the whole balance of the game in order to generate more fluid and diverse gameplay.

I've played a couple of games with this mod and I can't yet say a thing about the balance, it's a lot to take in and it will take time before people will adapt. One thing I do know is that it's taking the right direction, maybe one day it will become something truly beautiful and we can depart from the abomination we call FAF balance. And hey, if the mod really does suck incurably forevermore, there's still a lot that can be learned from it.

I don't particularly mind relearning game balance anyway, I actually rather enjoy the process.

[Crotalus]

Nice to see someone actually trying improve the game not only with theorycrafting but actually putting effort into it.

With that said, this isn't the proper way of getting balance changes into the game. You need to hook up with the balance councillor / team so you can claim it has community backing. Otherwise the work will be wasted anyway in the end.

Also, if you want some changes into the game you should probably fork the FA repo and put your work there instead of working alone in stealth mode.

[Mad`Mozart]

Thirdly game designers are extremely cautious about doing big changes after already shipping the game and for a good reason too, just look at FAF, every time someone suggests a change they get overwhelmed with flame. People don't want to relearn the game and fear it will just get worse from any change. It's acceptable to think this way, but don't imply it has something to do with the changes being "bad" - don't talk about shit you have no clue about - like Exotic_Retard said, you can't just skim through extensive patchnotes and give your so very "intelligent" opinion on them. Balance is not simple, don't treat it as such.

So reading between lines, you are already convinced that people wont be able to understand all the massive impact the mod makes on balance and wont accept them as a result. And on top of that, their opinion on it worth jack shit since they never played it. Funny enough, your first impression is your best motivation to give it a try, and you work so hard to ruin it. How about you actually try to give a reason to play the mod? Right now i dont have any.

That being said there is something worth fighting for in this mod. It's an honest attempt at solving some of the underlying problems within FA balance. While Ithilis might not be able to communicate his ideas very eloquently, his work in this mod is admirable and truly better than any superficial "nerf this buff that" attempt at balance. This is a rework on the whole balance of the game in order to generate more fluid and diverse gameplay.

And that's the thing im talking about. Every time someone critisizes the mod, Blodir stands up to defend Ithilis and to say he is actually way smarter than he looks like and probably than your mom too. And how much work he put in the mod. Seriously, stop doing that, that's offtopic. Unrelated and not convincing at all. Try to focus on the mod instead and explain reasons behind changes and why they make the game better (and not just "This is a rework on the whole balance of the game in order to generate more fluid and diverse gameplay". so damn vague and says nothing, maybe he fucked up the whole game doing that? )

Maybe then people will stop flaming and actually check it out

[Exotic_Retard]

How about you actually try to give a reason to play the mod? Right now i dont have any.

In short the main problem this mod tries to solve is imbalances between tech levels. Everything smaller scale is relatively easy to deal with.

does this answer your question?

if not them maybe this ultra boiled down and simplified one might:
we want you to try the mod because we think its more fun to play than current faf.
We also want you to play it so you can help Ithilis improve his mod.

i dont see how you could get any more direct answer than that. if you want i can explain all my reasoning to you in PM but i didnt want to write a distracting all of text.

Try to focus on the mod instead and explain reasons behind changes and why they make the game better

Ithilis lectures incoming!
I'm not sure if you bothered reading the change-log but it has a lot of explanation there. However even those 6k words aren't enough to explain it all.

Since you offered this, can you start listing the top 3 changes you don't like and then each one can be explained to you in depth, if you can provide a reason why its bad or another change that could be better, it will be considered and implemented it if your reason is good.

Then at least we can get this going somewhere rather than just useless shit throwing at each other (like in 99% of balance threads).
i like you mozart lets not start arguing about pointless things

[Blodir]

So reading between lines, you are already convinced that people wont be able to understand all the massive impact the mod makes on balance and wont accept them as a result. And on top of that, their opinion on it worth jack shit since they never played it. Funny enough, your first impression is your best motivation to give it a try, and you work so hard to ruin it. How about you actually try to give a reason to play the mod? Right now i dont have any.

Well obviously what you quoted is a huge generalization from me, but it was made simply to accentuate my point. There's always exceptions and I don't think I need to mention that in every sentence. Yes, I think the vast majority of people will not be able to look at the bigger picture, and would rather just ignore it or look at changes individually, which obviously doesn't make any sense since we lose their reference point when we change nearly every unit in the game. I also don't want to suggest that I understand the full impact of these changes, of course I don't, it's far too complex for my measly human brain to comprehend - that's where extensive testing comes in. However I do think that the general direction Ithilis is taking with this balance mod is right. Don't think so? Well do tell why, I'm honestly interested, Ithilis is honestly interested, and I sure do hope anyone reading this is interested, because if you aren't you should not be reading this anyway.

we want you to try the mod because we think its more fun to play than current faf.

I don't think so, mainly because I don't have a fucking clue. It's likely the balance is very much fucked up in this mod. However I do think we need to take this step to go back to the core of the game balance. Building on a stable foundation and all that..

And that's the thing im talking about. Every time someone critisizes the mod, Blodir stands up to defend Ithilis and to say he is actually way smarter than he looks like and probably than your mom too. And how much work he put in the mod. Seriously, stop doing that, that's offtopic. Unrelated and not convincing at all. Try to focus on the mod instead and explain reasons behind changes and why they make the game better (and not just "This is a rework on the whole balance of the game in order to generate more fluid and diverse gameplay". so damn vague and says nothing, maybe he fucked up the whole game doing that? )

Maybe then people will stop flaming and actually check it out

First of all let's get this out of the way - you don't need to flame someone to show your displeasure with their mod - instead you should try shutting up and ignoring it. Nobody cares about your opinion if you don't even want to be constructive.

It is ironic you are complaining about me going offtopic, when your own post contains only 2 sentences with any relevant content. Unfortunately it's very often that you have to be reminded about people not deserving your hate, when you seem to share it so lavishly. If you don't think it's important to the discussion, then you can just ignore the comment. I do not expect you to respond to it, especially since it wasn't specifically directed at you although that could easily have been the case.

Why are you asking me to explain you what is already said in the first post? If you want my thoughts on any of the changes in particular, I'm happy to answer. You just didn't ask. Don't expect me to just rewrite the whole changelog here so that you can read it too.

Oh and do keep in mind, like I said before, this is not my mod and I don't have confidence in everything that it contains. In fact I don't even have the zeal to analyze every change in depth, which is why I'd rather play it a bit before exclaiming opinions that I'm likely to change.

[Ithilis_Quo]

I don't want to change this threat on rage post where we would all throw shit to each others. So please stay constructive. Again. If its something wrong, say me what is wrong, why its wrong and i will repair it. I don't want make changes that are wrong, or changes that are not better as is current situation.

Why I make this mod is also kind of answer why play it.
Sentence as "actual balance is fine", or "everything is ok", "nothing is need to change" is too common on threat that want to change something, and too rare in game, where we all are everyday witnesses of wrong balance and simply broken stuff. I was take a effort to go deeper as only change some stats to make problem less obvious, I want to heal problem in place where is create. Not everything is that good as can be, im sure that this mod can be better, and will be better (actual have v.3 that implement feedbacks) but honestly, what you want to say with sentence as "I don't know what its all about, but I disagree?"
How did you think that it help? Play some games and say what is wrong, if its something wrong. If its really wrong, I will fix it.

But takeing opinion on thinks that have no clue what are about its as let shit in main square and call it art.


in wall of pointles text you ask for two things:
- why transport change

Spoiler: show

Because transport is very interesting and fun tool that is underused for a huge risk that its use entails. When transport scream on radar about how full is and want to die as fast as posible, then probably die very fast, and all mass in drop with him. Bacause its unfair intel, that say with kind of units it is on radar, same as radar dont say if is something gunship of interceptor is no reason for say that it is full transport. But primary point of change is fun factor that successful use of transport contain

- why play it:

Spoiler: show

small list of few of reasons..

because game does not contain:
mongoose that everytime miss, (my mongoose dont miss)
blaze/riptide that have retarded movement when retreat
mobile shield dont stay on palce being ussles when attack with army
chrono dumper & uef nano is posible use and not be call crazy
sacu that are not damaged, because dodge most of shot only with holy existance
tml that destroy tmd
tml on acu that is insta kill when go on close range
t4 bomber that have bigger range as land defend against (sam) and can hover bomb on total anihilation
experimental that can reclaim with 2000m per second. (and its battle and not suport exp)
t2 artilery that are waste of mass in 99% cases becasue miss most of the shots
sera t4 land that after death destroy at first own army
sera t3 land that is total pointles, and have zero chance stay against uef/cybran
t3 air that have roll with cubes for reasult
death zones in air in teamgames when one team have win air
megalith dont heal for 45 000hp with one hit from 200hp

also why to play it because it not only solve problem but also make some parth better:
faction diversity is bigger as was even before,
battles are more agresive, and more tactical,
late game lag less, because T2/3 enginer have same mass cost for build rate as T1 enginer so make no sense spamm t1 engy for assist.
game lag less, because change some searching for target that was setup for unlogical low time when reload time is much bigger
becasue game contains 12 more units that can be ussed more often that in 5% of gametime and still dont make less effective decision
because submarines open new gameplay strategies whiteout deny previous one
because player can better calculate production when know how much will factory drain resourse.
because game is more hard core and make bigger differences betwen good and excelent player.

[Mad`Mozart]

Ok you guys seem to get the whole different idea from what im trying to say and overdramatize it in %insert_your_country's_popular_author% way. So ill try one more time in different style now before someone gets offended by imagining me an evil leprechaun full of bile and hate.


Usual discussion i see:
*mod brought up*
x: 666 changes what the hell, its a spawn of satan and im a catholic, not playing that
y: that's just cause you cant comprehend it
x: but its bad, so many changes, dont need changing every unit in the game
y: you're just hating, have you ever played the mod? how can you judge if you havent played??
x: why do i need to play it, i already see its bad
y: pfff man, your opinion is of no value, so better get lost and stop hating. also Ithilis did a titanic work and you should appreciate it!
z: lololo this is a mod by Ithilis? xDDDDDDD
*wet drama*


Any coincedence here is (probably not) accidental
Thats just a general picture i have of any discussion i saw regarding this mod. Somehow if someone doesnt like or disagree with it, it tends to hurt involved person's feelings.


What would be a better outcome:
*mod brought up*
x: hmm, what is this, a balance mod by Ithilis? lol xD
y: yea, you could check it out. Its not made only by him, %some_other_names_that_are_involved% and a bunch of tester guys
x: well its a shit mod, so many changes wtf xD you're making a new game
y: so what? current balance is fucked beyond redemption, like these %top3_balance_issues%. they were trying to fix them for so long yet its still broken, so we tried a whole new approach to this
x: still so many changes, you're breaking FA and its spirit
y: just give it a shot and play couple games before you judge it? maybe you'll like it in the end
z: how about %this_issue%?
y: yeah its also reworked. %details%


Now that would be way more productive. Throw some fucking marketing and advertising in the mix That would draw more attention to the mod itself instead of questioning the author's knowledge and ability to make good desicions. And give other dudes a reason to check it out too (the "Ithilis lectures" much). Thats was my whole point, no hidden meaning and turgidity.

And with all that, im outta here before i cause any more drama with my "hating"

[theeggroll]

Reading through these changes, I really think this removes almost all faction diversity. I think your overall goal is to make everything more balanced, but in my humble opinion there are just a few changes that need to be made to make this much more balanced. (I.e. the othuums needs to be much better because t3 sera vs t3 uef is just a game of how long you can survive). I think its awesome that you worked so hard, but this looks like a big buzzkill to me. As someone said, I may not truly know what im talking about since i havent tried this out, but on paper it looks kind of boring. Seems like a crap ton of strategies are removed from this and the game becomes much more straight forward with everyone doing relatively the same thing.

[IceDreamer]

Personally, my biggest objection is that I disagree with the fundamental direction of the mod. This balance tried to make all tech levels of units relevant in combat all through the game. It tries to make them all be built, all game. Well, I don't like this idea. Personally, I think that T1/T2 should compete, T2/T3 should compete, and T3/T4 should compete, and that T1/T3 and T2/T4 should be an absolute and catastrophic slaughter. I think that for T1 units to have a use later in the game (And they should!!! Don't get me wrong here!), that use should not, I repeat, NOT be in combat. It should be in cheaper cost, in speed, or in throw-away value.

Fact is the current game achieves this! The Tech balance in combat works very nicely, with only a handful of exceptions, such as Fobos, T2 Mobile Shields, and T2 Mobile Flack. Then, outside of combat, it gets even better! T1 Land and Air Scouts, Deceiver, small T1 Tank battalions, T2 Gunships, T1 PD, T2 Fabs, Stealth Gens, Hives... Many of these are units in one tech level which become their most useful once you're well past that point in the game.

It is no coincidence that what we have currently is remarkably close to what I just described above. it's not perfect, but the fact of the matter is that what I described is how Vanilla worked, it's how FA worked, and it's how FAF works now. I don't want this to change, because if it changes, I am no longer playing the same game!!! I'm playing something else entirely.

That's the crux of it, I think. We fell in love with a game which does NOT have perfect tech level distribution. You don't need to play dozens of games to see that this mod changes a fundamental, essential part of what you know and love to know it's not for you.

EDIT: Eggroll just summed up another of my major impressions from reading through, and from playing it.

[Ithilis_Quo]

Mozart, as we all know my english is too far to be called perfect, so i rather decide write less as more and let my work speak for me.

Main reason why i change most of units is, because i change veterancy. So doesnt matter if i want or not, i must change every units, for new veterancy system that dont cause situation of pure madness when for example experimental refuse die, because take insta heal. or issue (;) i learn something) when is destroying own army more valid strategy as use it for defense.. Or situation when destroy battleship that have 49 000hp 450dps on 128r and cost 9000mass is reward same as destroy T3 enginer with 600hp and white flag whitch cost 440m It is reworked on system where
- units get experience equal 2% of mass cost of units that destroy
- next veteran level is equal number of experience that is 3% mass cost of units
- where instant heal doesnt exist, units get only new max hp, and
- regeneration is moved so start on 2level. So regenerate faster.
- (I also want rework repair system, for cost only energy and then be valid for use, but this is already too complicate for my programing skill. )

Spirit of game is same, its still same game and in first couple of game you will not know what exaktly is different if would not loking for it. Try it on some game im nearly sure that you can found something that you will love on it. And if not then at least i would know better i need make it even better.

PS: Im loking for some employee who take free place on PR section, salary is number of like that we settle on entrance interwiev.