Upcoming Elections

Talk about general things concerning Forged Alliance Forever.

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Re: Upcoming Elections

Postby ACCURACY » 21 Apr 2019, 13:01

it would've been infinitely better than endless t1 spam, useless high tech and snipe mode trash
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Re: Upcoming Elections

Postby Katharsas » 21 Apr 2019, 13:29

The unconstructive whining, bashing and generally condescending attitude of some people in this thread is absolutely disgusting. Do you even recognize how you come across?


Heaven wrote:
FtXCommando wrote:Imagine calling a role meaningless and then have one of your lists of demands involve the responsibility of that role.

i doubt anyone has taken the time to even define what the responsibilities of the m&m councilor are. if anyone had and what you said is part of his role, why did the the last one neglect this area completely?



A lot of people have put tons of times into trying their best to create these roles AND define their responsibility, and there are always ongoing discussions on how to improve this stuff and just because you don't like the actions of single persons you devalue all of the work that has gone into trying to create a system that works better than dictatorship?
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Re: Upcoming Elections

Postby biass » 21 Apr 2019, 13:32

Heaven wrote:i doubt anyone has taken the time to even define what the responsibilities of the m&m councilor are.


Aye.
- Maintain and secure the content pipeline to the end user.
- Guide and provide the incentive for creation of new content.

That's as concise as it gets, and involves everything from guides to guidelines.

if anyone had and what you said is part of his role, why did the the last one neglect this area completely?


Would you like to define as to what the criterion would be for content quality, find a team of objective, third party reviewers who will scour the vaults (now made more difficult in the new client) for breaches of that quality, deal with the backlash as users no longer have access to content they enjoyed because they're not in the competitive niche and do so in a timeframe as not to not discourage content creation? Especially that from newcomers? Don't answer that, we already know.

if you want to spice up the game with new stuff, add content or customization,

Like T3 MAA right?

then unrank the maps in the third category, whatever. just can't have players of turtle maps get the same kind of rating they get in regular team games, because their skill isn't comparable.


Would you like to explain to the overwhelming majority of the playerbase as to why the one incentive to play the game has now been stripped away because an elitist niche has deemed what they enjoy to not be the "pure experience"? Oh, and do so before the playerbase is wiped clean off the face of the client.

Better solutions exist that don't involve destruction of incentive. Feel free to try and find some while you're drinking.

Heaven wrote:roll back to july 2016 balance,i'd like to play again


Care to explain why you are not playing BHEDIT? it's rated, and what else attempts to keep people playing than meaningless pointy wointys?

Besides, one too many late RAS' or loyalist rushes and you'll be back here again. Nothing will change.

Katharsas wrote:The unconstructive whining, bashing and generally condescending attitude of some people in this thread is absolutely disgusting. Do you even recognize how you come across?


You're not helping deescalate the situation.
Map thread: https://bit.ly/2PBsa5H

Petricpwnz wrote:biass on his campaign to cleanse and remake every single map of FAF because he is an untolerating reincarnation of mapping hitler
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Re: Upcoming Elections

Postby Dunstklinge » 21 Apr 2019, 14:04

Putting the general faf™ snarky remarks™ and emotional appeals aside, i unironically think that rolling back to 2016 would have an overall positive impact. Balancing is not something that can be solved greedily (i.e, a sucession of changes that improve things in isolation do not necessarily result in an improvement in the big picture), and at least from a viewers perspective, i have to agree with heaven: faf has become pretty bland.

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:Every game needs balance changes, which is the reason why almost every major competitive game gets balance changes. The playstyles of the players change constantly, and the balance has to be adapted to reflect that.

Plenty of games get along just fine without or with very minimal balance patches. They have the added benefit that they dont shoo away their oldschool players by transforming the game beyond recognition, which gives them added stability.
On the other hand, if you like a game, and it gets patched constantly, then there will be a point where you stop liking the game, and then we end up in the situation where heaven is in right now.

tatsu wrote:I also understand that things changing too fast can put people off.

changing something slower doesnt put people off any less, it just makes them take longer to realise it. Instead of protesting loudly, they slowly lose interest without actually realising why.

tatsu wrote:I'm a big believer in "everything can always be improved, and always even more, and ect ect ect..."

I also heavily disagree with that. The changes you gave as examples below are things that most people can be indifferent about, but most "improvements" are very subjective and look make things worse to other people. You may keep trying to reach the state of the game that is perfect to you personally, but you will keep making the game worse and worse in the eyes of an increasingly large amount of people.
You simply reach the point where you cant improve something without alienating people anymore, and thats where a thing stops being able to be improved.
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Re: Upcoming Elections

Postby ACCURACY » 21 Apr 2019, 14:07

Katharsas wrote:The unconstructive whining, bashing and generally condescending attitude of some people in this thread is absolutely disgusting. Do you even recognize how you come across?


as if its non deserved

Katharsas wrote:A lot of people have put tons of times into trying their best to create these roles AND define their responsibility, and there are always ongoing discussions on how to improve this stuff and just because you don't like the actions of single persons you devalue all of the work that has gone into trying to create a system that works better than dictatorship?


hey i built a house made out of shit! i worked SO HARD and for SO MANY YEARS!!! won't someone please think of the immense value it has!?!?!?!
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Re: Upcoming Elections

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 21 Apr 2019, 14:33

Dunstklinge wrote: Plenty of games get along just fine without or with very minimal balance patches.

Plenty of games have much fewer problems than FAF has.
Plenty of games are not evolving and slowly die.
Plenty of games lose their long-time player base because pressing balance issues are not patched.

Dunstklinge wrote: They have the added benefit that they dont shoo away their oldschool players by transforming the game beyond recognition, which gives them added stability.

And what about the old-school players which want the game to evolve? Do you just assume every old-school player wants the game to stay exactly how it is? And even if all of this was as bad as you want to make it, there is still the option of just playing bhedit. It is even ranked now, just fire up some games and see how it goes.

Dunstklinge wrote: On the other hand, if you like a game, and it gets patched constantly, then there will be a point where you stop liking the game

Good point. More patches = stop liking the game. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this argument!

Dunstklinge wrote: and then we end up in the situation where heaven is in right now.

Who is “we”? Heaven’s situation is basically being upset about balance changes while at the same time not giving any suggestions except “Throw out the balance team and roll back balance because um yea I don’t like it, and everyone clearly has the same opinion as I do!”
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Re: Upcoming Elections

Postby Dunstklinge » 21 Apr 2019, 15:05

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:Plenty of games have much fewer problems than FAF has.
Plenty of games are not evolving and slowly die.
Plenty of games lose their long-time player base because pressing balance issues are not patched.


Plenty of games have similar problems to FAF
Plenty of games are still growing finely
Plenty of games do not lose their long-time player base because they joined the game because they liked it in the first place

You made the claim that games need balance patches. There are plenty of examples that disprove this. Saying that there are games that die doesn't change that.

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:And what about the old-school players which want the game to evolve? Do you just assume every old-school player wants the game to stay exactly how it is? And even if all of this was as bad as you want to make it, there is still the option of just playing bhedit. It is even ranked now, just fire up some games and see how it goes.


Every oldschool player has a different idea about where the game should evolve. Picking one path pisses more of them off than staying where they are. You always have to choose some group of people to piss off, and not doing patches is generally the way to piss off the least amount of oldschool players.
Also, bhedit existing doesn't change the fact that the majority of replays, tournamets, team games and the entire ladder does not use it. Its pretty much insignificant to the issue.

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:Good point. More patches = stop liking the game. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this argument!

You might want to share the flaws you identified, or else i can only make wild asumptions about how you might have interpreted it or where you struggle to understand it. The next paragraph might clear that up though.

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:Who is “we”? Heaven’s situation is basically being upset about balance changes while at the same time not giving any suggestions except “Throw out the balance team and roll back balance because um yea I don’t like it, and everyone clearly has the same opinion as I do!”

"We" is this thread.
Also, you seem to be misinterpreting heavens position, so let me break it down for you:
he joined the game years ago when he liked it,
he saw dozens of balance changes, many of which he disagreed with, slowly move faf into a direction he doesnt like. (i.e more patches = stop liking the game).
At some point he realized that the faf of today is different enough from the faf he used to like that he stopped playing it.
He knows other people that feel the same way, so he knows he is not the only one.
He gets emotional because he spent thousands of hours in this game and now its gone, so the remarks he made were a little harsh. We've all been there. Im sure you can muster up a little empathy.
Besides, he gave a suggestion: roll back to 2016. If the game continues to head into a direction you dislike, then a complete 180 is the only solution that seems feasable. It seems extreme to you because you like where the game is right now, but when you dislike the entire direction of the last 2 years, then this is the only feasable solution.

You like the direction faf is going, and you think oldschool players who dislike it should just go away. Thats fine. But please stand to that opinion. Dont pretend like the other position isnt valid.
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Re: Upcoming Elections

Postby FtXCommando » 21 Apr 2019, 16:24

Heaven wrote:i doubt anyone has taken the time to even define what the responsibilities of the m&m councilor are. if anyone had and what you said is part of his role, why did the the last one neglect this area completely?


The M&M Councillor is responsible for the maintenance of both vaults and trying to synthesize the desires of that part of the community in order to present clear needs for the devs on what is needed to improve the user mapping/modding experience. If you disagree with how someone ran the position, that would be why an election on it exists.

Heaven wrote:faf doesn't need balance changes, it was good at one point. never change a running business. if you want to spice up the game with new stuff, add content or customization, but don't change around balance for the sake of variety. it's gonna take forever till the bad changes from the last 1-2 years are rolled back, as doing it all in one sweep would actually require the balance team to publicly admit that they made the game boring, which is never gonna happen no matter how much the community complains


I disagree with this completely. RAS, Loya/harb autowin vs t2 all-in, the utter depravity of navy balance, various fixes for air units like cybran and phim gunships. I fail to see how you can add content without changing balance? That by definition means it is a pointless change that wasn’t necessary. This balance team isn’t even entirely the same as the one that made the july 2016 changes and plenty of people on the team weren’t fans of say hp diversification.

Heaven wrote:then unrank the maps in the third category, whatever. just can't have players of turtle maps get the same kind of rating they get in regular team games, because their skill isn't comparable.


biass has basically said the drawbacks of doing anything like this. But again, it’s an M&M prerogative and if people feel that strongly about it they can vote in someone that wants to crusade against these maps.

Plenty of high level players disliked the game state since 2016 and have worked to improve it. For those that don’t know, the balance team consists of like 5 of the top 10 players at the game as well as several others experienced in the game code. Honestly it sounds like some of you guys drank the anti-3622 kool-aid so hard you became balance fundamentalists. Even Blackheart eventually relented that RAS could have used a rebalance.
Are you upset? Are you happy? Are you a FAF Player? Come to the PC Discord and share your thoughts and build the community!

https://discord.gg/Y2dGU8X
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Re: Upcoming Elections

Postby Bennis- » 21 Apr 2019, 17:39

Morax im against tyranny vote for me please
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Re: Upcoming Elections

Postby ACCURACY » 21 Apr 2019, 18:21

Too many candidates for pulitzer and not enough reverting this atrocious balance
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