SACu conceptual rework

[Ithilis_Quo]

Spoiler: show

Normaly i would not make this post, and do it by myself... but i found that need help, because this is bigger as I am.
Why i post it on suggestion forum is, because i fount this as one of best solution how to make SACu good but not OP and that cancerous as are today.

IceDreamer fix hitbox on sacu, so now beamweapon and other projectil can hit sacu much easier as before (thx icedreamer) It help but still not heal major problem.


What i found as major problem on SACU:
- are too strong against land units, basic land units have no chance against sacu, aoe upgrade make it even worse
- have superior enginering suit and battle suit together, that mean SACU is unbeatable even from air, because can imediatly spamm shield and SAM
- superior reclaim units, not only that its strongest units for mass, imediatly after win battle, can reclaim everything, XX gunship going try to kill few sacus, after 10sec is on place shield and 5flaks, and reclaim engagment.
- dont leave any reclaim - its not only strongest units, but also when you destroy it, you dont have any gain from it, as you have from destroed experimental...
- can have plenty of surviability and RAS together, where is moving unbeatable economy

What i found as primary solution how to make it better:
- split upgrade, where player would chose what want (fighter / enginer / suporter(ability) ) , and dont take all in one units.
- start with T2 enginering and 10-20 build rate (enginering upgrade give T3 and another build rate)
- lower aoe damage on weapon
- slither less surviability and price
- more death explosion, to be more dangerous to own army, because dont leave reclaim
- fix hitbox (already done)
_______________________________________________________________________________
more detail about upgrades:

UEF SACU

LEFT ARM
- Enginering 500m - POD - (25+35br) -> advance enginering (prerequisity is enginering-POD-)
--> Advance Enginering 500m (100br +T3)
or
- damage upgrade (1.5x dmg= 450dps)

BACK
- shield -> bubble shield
-->bubble shield
or
RAS
or
Sensor system

RIGHT ARM
- aoe dmg upgrade
or
- range upgrade -> anti experimental
--> anti-experimental -> cause more dmg to experimental units
or
Jamming

- - - - -
CYBRAN SACU

LEFT ARM
- Enginering 500m (60br) -> advance enginering (prerequisity is enginering)
--> Advance Enginering 500m (100br +T3)
or
- EMP upgrade

BACK
- stealt -> cloac
-->cloac
or
Nano regen (less regen, small NewMaxHP)
or
RAS

RIGHT ARM
- aoe dmg upgrade
or
- range upgrade -> anti experimental
--> anti-experimental -> cause small stun also to experimental units
or
- AA misile (EMP upgrade also work on AA)

- - - - -
AEON SACU
- sacry system integrate as general ability (same as on enginers)
- start with 25r

LEFT ARM
- Enginering 500m (60br) -> advance enginering (prerequisity is enginering)
--> Advance Enginering 500m (100br +T3)
or
- rof + speed upgrade (1.25xrof + 0.5sp)

BACK
shield -> advance shield
-->advance shield
or
teleport
or
RAS

RIGHT ARM
- range upgrade
or
- aoe upgrade
or
nano regen


- - - - -
SERA SACU
- start with +1m +20e

LEFT ARM
- Enginering 500m (60br) -> advance enginering (prerequisity is enginering)
--> Advance Enginering 500m (100br +T3)
or
- Overcharge (less price/dmg)
or
Teleport

BACK
- RAS
or
- shield
or
-> Automatic overchange -prerequisity is overcahnrge- (fire whiteout toggle, as normal weapon, but cause less dmg)

RIGHT ARM
- sensor system(only sensors)-> range
--> more range
or
TML
or
NANO

[IceDreamer]

Personally I don't think this is necessary. SCUs are in a good place right now, just that a few of the presets are too strong. That does not necessitate a massive rework, which in all likelyhood will fail because it changes too much, it just means we need to nerf the things which are problematic.

The trick to correcting balance is softly softly. Do too much in one go and you WILL fail, which is actually what caused the OP RamboSCU problem in the first place.

[Ithilis_Quo]

Cant agree, sacu are broken, because dont leave any reclaim, and can imediatly reclaim everything that destroy.

It is a reason why harbringer reclaim ability have only 3br instead of 20 what is same build rate for mass as have sacu.
Can you imagine harbringer with 20 br on reclaim ? It would be totaly OP. On Sacu it is even wors because can not only reclaim, but also build. and not only buid and reclaim but also dont leave any reclaim when its destroyed. So harbringer with 20br is on this field only 1/3 effectivnes as sacu. And 20br on harb is total craziness, what cant be fixed with only softly tweaks.

[IceDreamer]

Cant agree, sacu are broken, because dont leave any reclaim, and can imediatly reclaim everything that destroy.

This was true for seven long years during which SCUs were seen extremely rarely, if ever. The current state of SCUs being OP has nothing whatsoever to do with their ability to not leave a wreck or to suck up reclaim, and everything to do with the fact that their combat abilities were made too strong when they were buffed out of that seven years of uselessness.

[Resin_Smoker]

About the hotbox issue, I have a few options:

- Adjust the hotbox size, making it slightly deeper and easier to hit when moving. This can be scripted to only increase as the SCU moves and by an amount proportional to the units speed.
- Slightly offset the hotbox "backwards" when the SCU is moving as most beams / projectiles miss by a fraction of the hit boxes size due to said movement.
- Add a "Shoot-Me" bone to the units model and tell all enemy units that this is the preferred location to target on the SCU. Said bone would be placed slightly ahead of the units center to compensate for the SCU's forward movement.

However if I were forced to choose, I'd go with the second option as this is easy to script and can be controlled on the fly.

Resin

[IceDreamer]

About the hotbox issue, I have a few options:

- Adjust the hotbox size, making it slightly deeper and easier to hit when moving. This can be scripted to only increase as the SCU moves and by an amount proportional to the units speed.
- Slightly offset the hotbox "backwards" when the SCU is moving as most beams / projectiles miss by a fraction of the hit boxes size due to said movement.
- Add a "Shoot-Me" bone to the units model and tell all enemy units that this is the preferred location to target on the SCU. Said bone would be placed slightly ahead of the units center to compensate for the SCU's forward movement.

However if I were forced to choose, I'd go with the second option as this is easy to script and can be controlled on the fly.

Resin

Dude, it's been done. It's ready, it's been ready for months. You should come on Slack so you don't keep getting left behind in the dust of progress

As for adding brand new bones to models, we'd love to. We can't. We don't have a single person with the programs or know-how to do it. Other than you, Resin, but you don't seem interested...

[Ithilis_Quo]

This was true for seven long years during which SCUs were seen extremely rarely, if ever. The current state of SCUs being OP has nothing whatsoever to do with their ability to not leave a wreck or to suck up reclaim, and everything to do with the fact that their combat abilities were made too strong when they were buffed out of that seven years of uselessness.

In past was sacu too expensive, that was reason why was not build, but situation about build power was stay nearly same as today but because unit was cost much more it was not issue. I have open the scipt to be sure, and here is stats of (aeon) sacu from orginal FA:

- have 200dps insted of 300today
- nano repair was cost 1800m instead of 1500 as today
- dont leave wrack as today
- gun upgrade cost 1000m instead of 1250 and take 4 aoe insted of 3,5
- ras take 11m/900e instead of 10/1000e but cost 2500m insted of 4500m
- enginering take 90bt insted of 98 (because engi mode) and was cost 2100m instead of 800m
- start enginering was 60 instead of 48 as today
- was producing 3m 300e instead of 1/20e
- have 30 000hp instad of 15 000hp
- cost 8700mass instead of 2000m

the sacu was hardly buffed because on that price was not that effective,
bout enginnering (reclaiming issue) before it was 0,007 br for 1 mass now its 0,024 what is 3x more...
Before was sacu nearly ussles but not because cant imediatly reclaim everthing in while.. but because was too expensive. when would have sacu previous br for mass then it is 14 and would it be fine. or much more fine as it is now.

btw this was not any kind of softly softly balance change. And stil it is much much more better as was before this "rape" change, that make units 4x stronger as before. Sometime is need make big change, small change is not change as would not be change when sacu would cost 8000m instead of 8700m or when would have 250dps instead of 200dps, that change would not change nothing. and its similar situation today. Only softly tweak OP rambo present totaly dont heal problem. Because would still rape land units, would still be not counterable units for even simmilar mass cost.

[Resin_Smoker]

About the hotbox issue, I have a few options:

- Adjust the hotbox size, making it slightly deeper and easier to hit when moving. This can be scripted to only increase as the SCU moves and by an amount proportional to the units speed.
- Slightly offset the hotbox "backwards" when the SCU is moving as most beams / projectiles miss by a fraction of the hit boxes size due to said movement.
- Add a "Shoot-Me" bone to the units model and tell all enemy units that this is the preferred location to target on the SCU. Said bone would be placed slightly ahead of the units center to compensate for the SCU's forward movement.

However if I were forced to choose, I'd go with the second option as this is easy to script and can be controlled on the fly.

Resin

Dude, it's been done. It's ready, it's been ready for months. You should come on Slack so you don't keep getting left behind in the dust of progress

As for adding brand new bones to models, we'd love to. We can't. We don't have a single person with the programs or know-how to do it. Other than you, Resin, but you don't seem interested...

Id love to rework a few models but i cant get 3D max working.

[Turkey]

I think it'd be cool if they left a wreck to reclaim. Probably just shattered bits of shrapnel scattered over the area of the explosion, but still worth scooping up.

[Apofenas]

I agree that SCUs are too strong atm. But i disagree with the way Ithilis wants it to be. Overall it's nerf, but has really big disaadvantages in it. For example jammer and sensor on uef SCU are still obselite upgrades, but seraphim can get teleport, ras and Nano/tml in one SCU. Cybran emp upgrade becomes even more OP as it will stun experimentals and air. Seraphim will have OC, shield and advanced range all the time and i think it will make SCUs even stronger.

The way it is in current patch is just better, though it needs some tweaks for it.

1) Integrate sacrifitial system into aeon SCU and add absolver effect upgrade on that place
2) Give enchanted sensor system additional radar range and small HP and regen buff(may be make it into one upgrade tree and additionally place extra engineering upgrade somewhere)
3) Add small regen/hp buffs for having engineering upgrade, but lower basic build power(may even make standard SCU suit t2 or like sparkey - to build only combat structures, or only non-combat structures)
4) Nerf RAS SCU by adding SCU storage upgrade that is nessesary to get before RAS(also may make power focused RAS and mass focused RAS as different upgrade steps); balance out seraphim SCUs basic income and storage with it
5) Rework sera tml upgrade into cruiser type missle launcher(with balanced stats around t3 mobile arty or spearheads), so it would not be the weapon of snipe, but instead the combat toy
6) Move aeon nano or shield around and tweak it so it would add HP as well, to make it valible upgrade(may not be nessesary as nano combatant preset is good vs t3 atm than rambo or shield combatant)
7) Add torp upgrade to cybran aa upgrade with good dps(may be 90-110), but with high cost and balance out, so t2 subs would beat them.
8) Balance out SCU battle options, so they would compensate faction disadvantages in t3-t4 balance
9) May be move cybran cloak to right hand? Without its hp buffs and huge power costs, just cloak; add small regen/hp buffs to cloak and stealth upgrades, but make them cost more(for examle 1k for stealth and 1.5k for cloak) so stealth-cloak-engineer SCUs would cost like real rambo for their sneak ability.