SACu conceptual rework

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Re: SACu conceptual rework

Postby yeager » 13 Jun 2015, 16:25

Col_Walter_Kurtz wrote:
Ithilis_Quo wrote:basicaly, sacu are uncounterable. Isnt weapon that can efective counter sacu.. with T3 units its nearly not posible defeat sacu.


If the fact that T3 doesn't go well against SCU's is evidence of them being uncounterable, then T4 are uncounterable too. The argument you make simply doesn't hold water. Lower tech gets trumped by higher tech. You can't just keep spending the same amount of mass on lower tech and expect to win. You must spread your units and raid stuff instead of going head to head.

I would not consider SCU's a T3 unit by the way, they are in their own group between T3 and T4. Basically you make T4 to counter T3.5, or you make air, pd, shields, etc.

Ithilis_Quo wrote:We can tweak weapon to take less/more dps, yes of course. but this post is not about that. This is about another advantage that sacu have and that is posibility to imediatly reclaim everything and build everithing, even when are strongest weapon in game. Simply units that is strongest in game cant have posibility to imeditly reclaim what destroy (same problem on megalith) and dont leave any reclaim for oponents. Its very big advantage that is systematical wrong. Again imagine harbringer with 20br. and posibility to build. would it be ok ?


Like someone pointed out before me, this ability to reclaim / build and the fact they leave no mass did zero for them in 2007 - 2014. This means the discussion is in fact about tweaking DPS or other attributes.

Ummmm t3 can counter exps, in many cases cost effectively, like Percy vs GC, on big maps Percival wins cause it can fit in a trans and is more cost effective than GC. SACUs on the other hand... Well they are t4s stuck in the body of t3s and generally Op
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Re: SACu conceptual rework

Postby codepants » 14 Jun 2015, 22:50

Wanted to throw my hat in the rink of "SACUs are fine."

You are saying they are OP. Are GCs OP? No, because they cost 82k mass. The question you should be asking is, should a unit that costs as much as a SACU be able to do what it does? And the answer is, yea. They cost more than bricks, and bricks can school anything less than them. So SACUs should be able to as well. They cost basically a brick plus a t3 engie, and that's what they are.

SACUs are absolutely not uncounterable. I'm guess you've had some bad experiences, and that sucks, but in my experience SACUs seem very well balanced. They cannot "spam up" shields and AA fast enough to defend themselves against swarms of air units, which you should have by the time the SACU stage comes around. Any experimental will school them. What about them is unbalanced and substantiable either with numbers or a replay?
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Re: SACu conceptual rework

Postby yeager » 15 Jun 2015, 01:36

codepants wrote:Wanted to throw my hat in the rink of "SACUs are fine."

You are saying they are OP. Are GCs OP? No, because they cost 82k mass. The question you should be asking is, should a unit that costs as much as a SACU be able to do what it does? And the answer is, yea. They cost more than bricks, and bricks can school anything less than them. So SACUs should be able to as well. They cost basically a brick plus a t3 engie, and that's what they are.

SACUs are absolutely not uncounterable. I'm guess you've had some bad experiences, and that sucks, but in my experience SACUs seem very well balanced. They cannot "spam up" shields and AA fast enough to defend themselves against swarms of air units, which you should have by the time the SACU stage comes around. Any experimental will school them. What about them is unbalanced and substantiable either with numbers or a replay?

Alright... Let's make this simple, I'll take uef SACU for example
Rambo uef sACUs requires no micro, can kill 40+ illshavoh in under 20seconds (and without losing it's shield) can build t3, is cost effective agains exps, and to add to the lovelyness fits on a trans and can go underwater
And your hear to tell me it's not OP...... Wow
Also bricks are t that much better than what's below them, ilshavohs win if you can take out radar for te enemy
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Re: SACu conceptual rework

Postby IceDreamer » 15 Jun 2015, 01:48

There's no legitimate doubt that UEF RamboSCU is OP, but it's the exception rather than the rule. A step lower down, though still OP, you find the Seraphim (Overcharge is a beast) and Cybran (Can take out infinite non-experimentals with stun and kiting). The Aeon, and the rest of the SCU presets, are completely fine.

But yes, nobody can legitimately argue for the UEF Rambo, it's so utterly OP it's not even funny. Anyone claiming it isn't significantly superior to its own mass in T3 needs to wake the f*** up.
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Re: SACu conceptual rework

Postby yeager » 15 Jun 2015, 01:52

IceDreamer wrote:There's no legitimate doubt that UEF RamboSCU is OP, but it's the exception rather than the rule. A step lower down, though still OP, you find the Seraphim (Overcharge is a beast) and Cybran (Can take out infinite non-experimentals with stun and kiting). The Aeon, and the rest of the SCU presets, are completely fine.

But yes, nobody can legitimately argue for the UEF Rambo, it's so utterly OP it's not even funny. Anyone claiming it isn't significantly superior to its own mass in T3 needs to wake the f*** up.


Agreed, but I like wear they are, I think they just need uber expensive upgrades to compensate, except uef, which needs a health decrease regardless (on the shield I mean)
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Re: SACu conceptual rework

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 15 Jun 2015, 12:56

Yeager plase take me answer on equilibrium post, so our debate can continev...
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Re: SACu conceptual rework

Postby IceDreamer » 15 Jun 2015, 13:11

yeager wrote:
IceDreamer wrote:There's no legitimate doubt that UEF RamboSCU is OP, but it's the exception rather than the rule. A step lower down, though still OP, you find the Seraphim (Overcharge is a beast) and Cybran (Can take out infinite non-experimentals with stun and kiting). The Aeon, and the rest of the SCU presets, are completely fine.

But yes, nobody can legitimately argue for the UEF Rambo, it's so utterly OP it's not even funny. Anyone claiming it isn't significantly superior to its own mass in T3 needs to wake the f*** up.


Agreed, but I like wear they are, I think they just need uber expensive upgrades to compensate, except uef, which needs a health decrease regardless (on the shield I mean)


Health hit won't do shit. It's the range and AOE on that cannon which does the work. Nerfing the range to 32 such that you can't kite Percies, and Othuum can fire back, that's the way forward. Even then, you outDPS them by about 5 times, and you have so much more HP, and can build. Yeah, that's the way IMO.
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Re: SACu conceptual rework

Postby yeager » 15 Jun 2015, 14:58

Noted
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Re: SACu conceptual rework

Postby codepants » 26 Jun 2015, 18:43

yeager wrote:Alright... Let's make this simple, I'll take uef SACU for example
Rambo uef sACUs requires no micro, can kill 40+ illshavoh in under 20seconds (and without losing it's shield) can build t3, is cost effective agains exps, and to add to the lovelyness fits on a trans and can go underwater
And your hear to tell me it's not OP...... Wow
Also bricks are t that much better than what's below them, ilshavohs win if you can take out radar for te enemy


"Me being an asshole" rebuttal: OMG did u no a single strat bomber can kill 50 gcs because gcs have no AA did you know!?1 they are so op we need to nerf strat bombers!!!! and you don't even have to micro them. omg. so op.

Point: You are choosing completely arbitrary things to compare a SACU to. 20 ilshies? So what?

Real rebuttal: A UEF SACU costs 9600 mass*. An ilshovah costs 360*. 9600/360=26. Therefore if you want mass to mean something** a UEF SACU should actually be able to kill 26 ilshies. But let's take six of those away and give it the ability to make stuff (a t3 engineer costs 52 mass* so we are charging 2108 mass to have one unit be able to do two things (360x6-52)). Additionally, at higher levels mass is generally spent more efficiently than at lower levels. And note that's just the base SACU* so you pay even more for the shield.

Your example is meaningless. Do it with hard numbers. Not "since it can kill 20 ilshies it must be OP." Of course it can kill 20 ilshies.

*Numbers from supcom.wikia.com

**Unless you want to break the way mass works and have players who spend more mass make weaker units. But if I spend 50 mass on a tank, I'd like it to be able to kill something else worth roughly 50 mass, and I think it's reasonable to have it lose to something worth more than 50 mass (excluding purpose-driven units like AA, which are obviously less mass efficient against tanks, but more mass efficient against air units).
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Re: SACu conceptual rework

Postby yeager » 26 Jun 2015, 19:18

codepants wrote:
yeager wrote:Alright... Let's make this simple, I'll take uef SACU for example
Rambo uef sACUs requires no micro, can kill 40+ illshavoh in under 20seconds (and without losing it's shield) can build t3, is cost effective agains exps, and to add to the lovelyness fits on a trans and can go underwater
And your hear to tell me it's not OP...... Wow
Also bricks are t that much better than what's below them, ilshavohs win if you can take out radar for te enemy


"Me being an asshole" rebuttal: OMG did u no a single strat bomber can kill 50 gcs because gcs have no AA did you know!?1 they are so op we need to nerf strat bombers!!!! and you don't even have to micro them. omg. so op.

Point: You are choosing completely arbitrary things to compare a SACU to. 20 ilshies? So what?

Real rebuttal: A UEF SACU costs 9600 mass*. An ilshovah costs 360*. 9600/360=26. Therefore if you want mass to mean something** a UEF SACU should actually be able to kill 26 ilshies. But let's take six of those away and give it the ability to make stuff (a t3 engineer costs 52 mass* so we are charging 2108 mass to have one unit be able to do two things (360x6-52)). Additionally, at higher levels mass is generally spent more efficiently than at lower levels. And note that's just the base SACU* so you pay even more for the shield.

Your example is meaningless. Do it with hard numbers. Not "since it can kill 20 ilshies it must be OP." Of course it can kill 20 ilshies.

*Numbers from supcom.wikia.com

**Unless you want to break the way mass works and have players who spend more mass make weaker units. But if I spend 50 mass on a tank, I'd like it to be able to kill something else worth roughly 50 mass, and I think it's reasonable to have it lose to something worth more than 50 mass (excluding purpose-driven units like AA, which are obviously less mass efficient against tanks, but more mass efficient against air units).


Either you are trying to troll or you need medical help, ask anyone, Rambo sACUs are OP. 3 seraphim with Rambo can kill a GC and be Absolutly fine, a cybran SACU can kill an unlimited amount of none exps, and the uef SACU can do either. Ithilis, gyle, brink, ice, are just a few very logical and experienced people that will back me here, notice the thread isn't about IF they are OP, it is about how to make them less op
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