ASF fly higher than Ahwassa

[codepants]

All the arguments about mass efficient countering etc are smoke and mirrors, this happens so rarely that it's irrelevant.

Just because it happens infrequently doesn't mean it's smoke and mirrors. If you want to say units shouldn't be able to mass efficiently counter their counters, argue that meaningfully. Don't use catch phrases like "smoke and mirrors." Until someone argues otherwise, I stand by this being a core principle of the game and the main reason the AW shouldn't be able to do this.
(argue = not catch phrases)

Options:

Make the bomber fly lower - Can't be done, as it severely messes with drop chance
Make ASF fly higher - Can't be done, as it severely messes with the balance of ASF vs AA, particularly Flack
Make the bomb pass through planes - Can be done, but kills a bit of what makes supcom special. Also won't fully fix the issue, AW users will just find a shield to use as an explosive wall. Will be rarer, but will still occur.
Enable self damage - Can be done, but weakens the AW overall and promotes hovering once it has launched, which I don't think is a good idea.
Fix the dumbass veterancy system - Can be done. Needs to be done.
Enable self damage when the bomb impacts a plane in the air - Can be done. Complex but for this unit lag concerns are minimal. My personal first port of call, defaulting back to the previous two if it can't be made to work properly.

I would settle for the AW damaging itself if it dropped within 5-10 height of itself, except that it would vet so much on the ASFs it doesn't matter.

I'm curious about the "can't be done" things... can they actually not be done? What is this drop chance and how does it work?

Also, I think using a shield as an explosive wall is totally legit.

[IceDreamer]

The ASF can't be done is obvious. Clearly it could be coded, but the rest of the game's AA would have to be rebalanced around it, so nope.

Drop chance is just a collection of factors which come together to say how reliably a bomber will drop its bomb. You know how sometimes you click a target, and the AW simply won't drop, and how it used to happen for all bombers? Yeah, lowing the AW makes that so, so much worse

[codepants]

Drop chance is just a collection of factors which come together to say how reliably a bomber will drop its bomb. You know how sometimes you click a target, and the AW simply won't drop, and how it used to happen for all bombers? Yeah, lowing the AW makes that so, so much worse

Okay, why is that?

[nakeddave]

Just because it happens infrequently doesn't mean it's smoke and mirrors. If you want to say units shouldn't be able to mass efficiently counter their counters, argue that meaningfully. Don't use catch phrases like "smoke and mirrors." Until someone argues otherwise, I stand by this being a core principle of the game and the main reason the AW shouldn't be able to do this.
(argue = not catch phrases)

Hmm, I'm actually with you in almost every way but this one. I don't think the counter philosophy being broken is really the issue here- it happens in a bunch of other ways - off the top of my head:

Every range-dependent counter can be reversed by positioning. Eg t1pd will wreck t1arty if they aren't scouted, despite being the correct counter. Also rangebots vs t1 tanks, similarly.
Cybran TML can do horrible things to TMD, in a way which I believe is mass efficient (missile is cheaper than the tmd which you can 1-shot).
Interceptors beat ASF mass-for-mass depending on numbers and arrangement,
You can probably wipe out flak with crafty use of corsairs, etc.
Also Battleships can hit subs, but I'm less keen on that one and it's controversial anyhow, but it's on the list

The reversal of the counter in the examples above is okay, because it doesn't turn the game on its head in an instant. I care about the gameplay implications, not the design consistency.

If misclicking your rangebots in a 3 second window meant that your land force all died instantly, leaving your opponents entire attack force instantly healed, vetted and left with nothing to stop them, it would be a much bigger problem. And the ahwassa situation is MUCH worse than that - if this happens to you, you're left with no way to save your base unless you happen to have another hundred ASF saved up for a rainy day, because SAMS are so ineffective against the ahwassa. This is deeply unbalanced for a unit with game-ending destructive power.

TL;DR: the problem is not that you can kill your counter, the problem is that you can kill EVERY UNIT that can defend against you in a single moment.

[codepants]

Every range-dependent counter can be reversed by positioning. Eg t1pd will wreck t1arty if they aren't scouted, despite being the correct counter. Also rangebots vs t1 tanks, similarly.
Cybran TML can do horrible things to TMD, in a way which I believe is mass efficient (missile is cheaper than the tmd which you can 1-shot).
Interceptors beat ASF mass-for-mass depending on numbers and arrangement,
You can probably wipe out flak with crafty use of corsairs, etc.
Also Battleships can hit subs, but I'm less keen on that one and it's controversial anyhow, but it's on the list

Actually I think you agree with me, you are just thinking in closed systems. Add a unit here or there and your examples come full circle, with every counter having a counter of its own:

- The counter to t1 pd is arty, t1 pd counters tanks, and tanks counter arty. None of those can mass efficiently counter their counters (provided proper micro; EG, tanks standing still or clumped up will lose to arty).
- The counter to cybran TML is not TMD, it's killing the TML.
- I'm curious to see a replay where interceptors beat ASF in equal numbers, all else equal (positioning, etc) as I have never seen this happen.
- Also curious to see this.
- True, but I have yet to see battleships win against a number of subs that "should" be able to kill the battleship

Additionally, saying that range-dependent counters can be reversed is tricky logic... ranged units generally substitute range for HP, with the total mass cost being roughly the same (compare Mongeese and Pillars). As such their counter is getting rushed, and to use them effectively you have to integrate them with other units to keep them from getting rushed.

But yea, even if these were irreversible situations, none of them are insta-vet, insta-air control.

[IceDreamer]

Drop chance is just a collection of factors which come together to say how reliably a bomber will drop its bomb. You know how sometimes you click a target, and the AW simply won't drop, and how it used to happen for all bombers? Yeah, lowing the AW makes that so, so much worse

Okay, why is that?

The sad part? I'm not really sure... Nobody really is. I think it's something to do with the fact that it's that bit faster than a stratbomber. So for it to work with higher speed, they have to fly higher. I've been prodding values, and I can't get it to work acceptably once I lowered it to not hit ASF :/

[nakeddave]

How does the decision to drop work - do we have access to that much of the code? Or is that a black box that unit stats interact with in some unspecified way?

I'm just imagining various ways that could be coded that explain why things get better when higher, but without seeing the code it's just speculation...

[IceDreamer]

We don't have access to it :/ We have access to the flight mechanics. We have access to everything that happens to the bomb once dropped, including altering the type of drop path it takes, and where it is *aimed*, but we don't have access to the decision of yes/no to actually drop, at least, not that I can find

[nakeddave]

Where does this code live? I've got a theory and lots of free time

[Ceneraii]

He just said, he doesn't know.