ASF fly higher than Ahwassa

[nakeddave]

I suppose you think it is not okay to occasionally block an enemy nuke and blow their base by swarming them with T1 Air Scouts? Not OK to hoverbomb? Not OK to save your own base from an enemy nuke by swarming yourself with air units? Not OK that manually re-loading your base shields can help you against enemy artillery at the cost of APM?

Ooh, fun! Lets go through them:
Nuke blocking- less obviously stupid, because unlike the ahwassa bomb the planes are deliberately flown into the danger zone rather than flying into it blindly due to a coding oversight. FAR less problematic for balance, because it's nowhere near as reliable (I've only ever seen someone pull it off once to defend, and it cost them their asfs) and *still* most of the base is in nuke radius even with an airburst, IIRC. It's not a gamewinner, much lower priority.
I've never seen it done over a launching nuke either, and you could prevent that with a single flak if it was a problem anyhow.

Hoverbombing - this is dumb, and like all these things is really counterintuitive for new players. I was under the impression that it's not fixable though, which closes down the debate unfortunately. It's not as serious for gameplay though because you counter it in exactly the same way you counter bombers normally.

Manually reloading shields - eh, honestly this doesn't bother me too much, never seen it be a problem- is it ever?

I get that in general the line between use and abuse is thin. But this issue has a significant negative impact on gameplay, is utterly nonsensical and can reduce the outcome of a game to a single moment of micro.

As for why don't the planes fly higher, I could make the argument that the bomber is Experimental, and that the Seraphim engineers took the known flight pattern of ASFs into account when designing it, such that this could happen.

You could, yes, but I'd hope that you won't.

[da_monstr]

A moment of micro should really not decide the outcome of the air game. You screw up your first turn in an ASF fight, that's fine. Your fault. Your ASF get nuked, you deserved that. But getting bombed by a unit they're supposed to counter, that's just stupid. That unit will then proceed to (hover)bombing everything you have. How does that make sense?

[Exotic_Retard]

the problem begins when someone learns to bomb like that on demand.
btw its already happened - not that hard to learn tbh.

id like ASF to have armour vs that - like czar beam - and make it so bomb takes off 75% of their hp - that would be fair imo

[Ithilis_Quo]

id like ASF to have armour vs that - like czar beam - and make it so bomb takes off 75% of their hp - that would be fair imo

Have this kind of fix is not healty for game. Total same with Czar, instead of put czar slithly down as are flying ASF here exist this uggle exception. That is master unintuitive, and someone who dont read it on forum cant know that somethign as this exist.

Btw on nuke, i was not mean defend against nuke with flying over enemy base with nuke launcher, but flying ower own base with air, that catch nuke in air, kill air units, but save base. When somene know ho to make this, then he dont need build nuke defense, because mass scout is much cheaper

[E8400-CV]

Let the ASF fly higher than bombers and shit's solved.

[zeroAPM]

Let the ASF fly higher than bombers and shit's solved.

But then you have to rebalance every AA unit to account for the greater height, thus greater travel time for the projectiles.

Also, inties and t2 fighters? Do they get the height boost too?

[codepants]

I suppose you think it is not okay to occasionally block an enemy nuke and blow their base by swarming them with T1 Air Scouts? Not OK to hoverbomb? Not OK to save your own base from an enemy nuke by swarming yourself with air units? Not OK that manually re-loading your base shields can help you against enemy artillery at the cost of APM?

Actually the OP explicitly said hoverbombing was fine and it explains why.

And yes, blocking a nuke is fine. That's a mass-efficient counter and furthermore, it's not about twitch skills.

I'm not sure what the trick is with manually reloading your base shields but I assume it's fairly mass efficient as well.

I've yet to see this extrapolated to any other move in the game. If you can find one -- one moment where you have less than a second (including build time for anything that can be scouted while being built; EG mazercom) to react, where you have prepared the mass efficient counter and where it fails because you did not hit the "s" key within 0.5 seconds of when you were supposed to, I'm all ears.

Well you can wreck a bunch of stuff with their counters if one side pays zero attention to what's happening. The one with the ahwassa has to time it right to hit the asf, it's not unreasonable to expect you to pay attention to avoid the same situation. It's like complaining that pd will kill arty if they walk into range ;D

Not paying attention to something that takes a few seconds to happen and not having the same micro capabilities as your opponent one time that lasts a split second, are two different things. Furthermore, I'd argue that "not paying attention" usually means it's been happening for a while, and you chose not to scout or not to react. EG, a drop of units: You could have scouted the transports and units being built.

For instance, say your opponent goes mazercom and you don't scout it. How long does it take to go mazercom? Forever. Yes, you should absolutely be punished for that. Furthermore, it is possible to mass-efficiently counter that with t1 pd. Those are things that you "should" see and be able to react to. Not seeing that your opponent hit "S" the instant that they do and hitting it immediately after they do is different. It's one second of gameplay deciding the entire game. It's not about paying attention, it's about twitch skills. And I think one of everybody's favorite thing about this game is that it's not about twitch skills.

Let the ASF fly higher than bombers and shit's solved.

But then you have to rebalance every AA unit to account for the greater height, thus greater travel time for the projectiles.

Also, inties and t2 fighters? Do they get the height boost too?

Sure.

Or we could lower the Ahwassa.

[nakeddave]

Or we could lower the Ahwassa.

Or we could just lower the bomb's origin point?

[Ceneraii]

It's not about twitch skills (Pressing stop on your asf would accomplish nothing, they'd still end up under it), all you need to do is have a non-retarded flightpath for your ASF (Anything besides right click will do basically). Do you also fly all your ASF under the czar beam? xD If you can't be arsed to pay attention to your asf for the whole 3 seconds it takes them to kill the ahwassa (after all, you guys are talking about 150 asf here) then you deserve to lose them ;D

[codepants]

Or we could just lower the bomb's origin point?

The works too, and no need to rebalance every other projectile.

It's not about twitch skills (Pressing stop on your asf would accomplish nothing, they'd still end up under it), all you need to do is have a non-retarded flightpath for your ASF (Anything besides right click will do basically). Do you also fly all your ASF under the czar beam? xD If you can't be arsed to pay attention to your asf for the whole 3 seconds it takes them to kill the ahwassa (after all, you guys are talking about 150 asf here) then you deserve to lose them ;D

So you're going to throw everyone who uses the attack command under the bus? (or, hey, under the Ahwassa...)

If you put the same amount of mass into a counter as your opponent puts into the unit you are countering, whether or not you successfully counter should not come down to how well you micro (or 0.5 seconds of gameplay, or -- let's give you the benefit of the doubt -- even three seconds of gameplay). If you are on the wrong side of the map, sure, suck it. If you say, "Attack, unit that is made to kill this," or if you issue move orders such that the countering units fire upon it, those countering units should not be insta-killed by it while it also vets 3x.

I agree there is a line of stupidity that we should not mod the game to remove, but I think that line is far beyond "Oh, I mis-clicked a few inches from where the ideal click would have been, there goes my entire investment into the unit made to counter the under I was trying to kill. I have now completely lost air control, and the unit I was trying to kill, which I scouted early and invested mass into the counter for, no longer has any counter, but has also vetted 3x."