Hives need a nerf

[Deribus]

I'd like it to be possible for all factions to get a nuke off on a rush timing (eg 4 t3 mex, then rush nuke out with optimum production scaling.

If you're getting T3 mexes before the launcher you aren't rushing a nuke. For the price of 4 T3 mexes you can get a nuke launcher + 30% of a missile

[Spy_Emanciator]

The optimum dual gap nuke involves 4 t3 mexes and 4 t2 mexes all capped and production scaling. I've not seen someone land the missile faster with less mass than that. Maybe 3 if your pushing it, most of the mass goes into production right after the launcher is completed.

Check then endless myriad of replays to prove it.

[Deribus]

Check then endless myriad of replays to prove it.

I watched your last 5 Dual Gap replays. The fastest nuke timing by anyone in those games was 20:10.

In my first try without getting T3 mex, I launched in 18:25, while also getting around 2.5k less reclaim than the 20:10 timing (replay ID: #11932046). And my build was pretty inefficient. You could probably get it down to 17:30 or so. If you have a replay where someone launches in under 18 minutes while also getting 4 T3 mexes and hives, feel free to share it.

[Spy_Emanciator]

If you get a nuke out that early then your doing it just by setting up the build start early at the cost of eco and production (much less assistance) this puts you way behind on the eco curve later on if it happens not to win the game for you immediately.

The issue again is that cybran can both eco, and hit a semi-macro nuke timing and keep slamming out nukes over and over while ecoing, where no other faction can both eco, expand production, and hit early timings all at the same time.

So my point is that Hives effect on nuke launchers is currently broken and needs a look. It simply not possible to exponentially expand your production with other factions for the reasons i listed earlier, and the self build power of upgrades are added problem on top of this.

Used to be t3 engies for seraphim had production bonus and that seemed to keep this ok, only aeon was really behind. Thats balance, what we have now is not.



What happens too much on dual gap is that the nuke rusher kills the land side of the map both smd (if one was attempted) and 1 or 2 eco spots and then the only option for them is production drop from the eco side over to the land side to cover. This rarely happens as most people are drooling on themselves on this map (que dual gap hatred memes) and the top just continually gets nuked over and over again until a conventional attack comes with 2x eco compared to the other side.

Air players have a window to cover but the issue is they also need to eco to keep up with the rapidly eco-focused meta. Used to be I would just get 3 t3 mexes on top air and then get smd no matter what, load it then continue ecoing, but that couldn't hold up to peoples eco only builds. So you have to scout for the nuke. With hive wall, the time from start to launch is just too fast. Its not possible to have enough t3 spy planes going out (as t1 will not get far enough) to hit the timing consistently to guarantee a reaction. Either your gimping your eco to play safe or your gimping your asf count, either way all your opponent is doing is being one faction. So again your doing unreasonable jugging just to counter someones factional pick that already had t1 advantages, t2 naval advantages, experimental rush advantages, ras printing advantages, and they are red which is a cool color. So FML trying to play random faction.

[Spy_Emanciator]

Ok detail oriented fix:

Nerf nuke loading by just hives by .8

also set hard limit on massive hives on single units like experimental production and shield bracing. I don't have a value in mind, but something reasonable to keep this feature in line with other factions due to the clumping/movement issue with engineers and drone assist.

[RedX]

I'm still confused how hives are the issue here. Am I missing something?

[Endranii]

Yes, you'r not playing gap.