Leaderboards suggest an Aeon buff?

[Blodir]

Aurora is only good in situations where all of the following are true: space is limited, you have head on big t1 army engagements and enemy does not have the time/resources to invest in hoplite/mongoose/t1 bomber/gun.

Not here to discuss balance, but rather to ask a question. Why is the aurora only good where space is limited? I would've thought, being a kiter, that having plenty of space to kite around in would be their strength.

There's practically always enough space to kite backwards with aurora so kiting is not really the issue. Lack of space when kiting only happens when there's a bottleneck terrain feature behind your units which slows down unit movement so it's easier for enemy to catch up. That kind of terrain feature is just really rare in SupCom. Yes you could theoretically run into a corner, but if you play properly there's always a retreat path... the one you came from

The main reason aurora prefers a more closed off map is that they are much slower than the other t1 tanks, which makes it much more difficult to defend in general. Like eg. on emerald crater a cybran player can run around the aeon players base freely and attack any target that is undefended whereas the only way for aeon to stop this is by using air (this applies to every faction to some extent which is why I really don't like such open maps in general, but for aeon the difference is much more dramatic).

(there are also other reasons that I won't get into here)

[biass]

Make sure you put it in red next time because I didn't read your attempt at mockery the first two times around, Blodir.
It is a response to techmind who deems cutting the price of the unit in half is a solid suggestion, and you've seemingly forgotten about that part here?
Make sure you consider the perspective of the author before writing a response.

since those factions shit on auroras really bad with hoplite/mongoose.

Sure, but you can decide if a unit being "shit on really bad" by a unit of a higher tech level is the norm in this game or not. Personally, I think that you even suggesting it as the "normal" requirement for fighting them is enough to prove that their appearance changes the game state compared to a, for example; uef/cybran battle.

The OP and others in this thread are (likely) speaking from the view that Aurora lose to their T1 contemporaries and unlike you or I, do not automatically fall under the assumption that Aurora will be met with a T2 rush/heavy air play/gun play every single game. That's why I asked for replays. Twice.

And futhermore, I believe that Aeon's apperance forcing a "shit on aurora really bad with mongoose" automatic assumption is why the faction is not played as much, as OP stated. Opening up options to the player has been a goal for both the balance team AND yourself in this forum's long and bloody history, and it turns out that units that force or dicate a certain style of play are pretty important to note when balancing a faction, don't you think?

[Blodir]

Sorry most of this is not related to the aeon issue but it is relevant to the conversation that was had in this topic...

Make sure you put it in red next time because I didn't read your attempt at mockery the first two times around, Blodir.
It is a response to techmind who deems cutting the price of the unit in half is a solid suggestion, and you've seemingly forgotten about that part here?
Make sure you consider the perspective of the author before writing a response.

Yes exactly, did you consider techminds words before writing a response?

And the argument of 'having faction diversity' and one of the faction being clearly worse at all stages of the game is bullshit.
No problem let it be diverse, lets cut the price for aurora by half, it will be still same 'diversity' but the faction suddenly will be the best choice for t1 stage.

How is it possible to interpret this as anything but merely a rhetoric device? Just to be clear what he is saying is that there is no faction diversity if one of the factions is never used at all. The way he emphasizes his point is by presenting a hypothetical scenario where we reversed the roles: Aeon would be buffed so heavily that other factions become unplayable (cutting price of aurora in half). As a result we would still have "faction diversity" in the sense that the factions would still be different, only the other three would never see any play.

Instead of considering what he said you misinterpreted him and went ahead and called him stupid. And then you even went so far as to say that you weren't toxic while in the very next sentence actually being toxic.

Ignoring Az, noone is being toxic here. Please do not conflate being toxic with not agreeing with your opinion.

I don't know dude... I just get the vibe that the only reason you are here is to argue or lord over players that are slightly below you in rating...

I never thought I would see people say aeon t1 is underpowered but that is indeed the nature of the balance forums where your skill level is not displayed.

You can't both scoff at lower rated players' opinions and argue with someone much higher rated. You have to either consider everyone's opinions (which I think is a good idea) or accept that if we lived by your rules you should not be doing any talking. Just to give you an idea: techmind that you were talking down to is around 700 rating, you are around 1400 rating and I'm currently 2300 rating. That means that you are closer to techmind in rating than I am to you. Does this mean I should ignore your opinions?

since those factions shit on auroras really bad with hoplite/mongoose.

Sure, but you can decide if a unit being "shit on really bad" by a unit of a higher tech level is the norm in this game or not. Personally, I think that you even suggesting it as the "normal" requirement for fighting them is enough to prove that their appearance changes the game state compared to a, for example; uef/cybran battle.

The OP and others in this thread are (likely) speaking from the view that Aurora lose to their T1 contemporaries and unlike you or I, do not automatically fall under the assumption that Aurora will be met with a T2 rush/heavy air play/gun play every single game. That's why I asked for replays. Twice.

And futhermore, I believe that Aeon's apperance forcing a "shit on aurora really bad with mongoose" automatic assumption is why the faction is not played as much, as OP stated. Opening up options to the player has been a goal for both the balance team AND yourself in this forum's long and bloody history, and it turns out that units that force or dicate a certain style of play are pretty important to note when balancing a faction, don't you think?

Of course if hoplite/mongoose was the only weakness of aurora then aurora would be quite strong indeed!

However I listed a whole bunch of reasons why aurora are just not that amazing. Then I even went into more in depth as someone asked a question! Let's recall some of that...

In most ladder maps aurora is the worst tank by far. Aurora is only good in situations where all of the following are true: space is limited, you have head on big t1 army engagements and enemy does not have the time/resources to invest in hoplite/mongoose/t1 bomber/gun. Eg. on Theta aurora are very good, whereas on that new 20x20 petric map (kusogi or something like that) aurora are totally unplayable garbage. Currently in the map pool there's arguably only 1 aurora map (viridium) out of 15. Also keep in mind that even if half of the map pool was aurora maps it would still not be fun to play aeon since you have a massive disadvantage on other maps.

Aurora has many weaknesses, that's why it's not a solid t1 tank like mantis.

And futhermore, I believe that Aeon's apperance forcing a "shit on aurora really bad with mongoose" automatic assumption is why the faction is not played as much, as OP stated.

Mongoose surely plays a role, but the list of reasons not to play aeon is very long and mongoose is only one point on that list. Let me mention just a few because why not: aurora, fervor, frigate, obsidian, blaze, no t2 bomber, t3 gunship, strat aoe, and the list goes on!

Opening up options to the player has been a goal for both the balance team AND yourself in this forum's long and bloody history, and it turns out that units that force or dicate a certain style of play are pretty important to note when balancing a faction, don't you think?

I of course agree with opening up as much strategic diversity as possible. On certain maps aurora definitely force a response, but it's really not that bad since you do have some choice: rush t2 (especially uef/cybran), spam t1 bombers, rush gun, or abuse zthuee micro as sera (one of my replays on desert arena). However I can see why this would be an issue for lower rated players (wink wink). Also it has to be said that maybe this is just a map issue. I don't feel like aurora require a very specific response on any map that is not just pure t1 spam by nature.

It's great to see that you shifted topics to something that we at least partially agree on!

[biass]

How is it possible to interpret this as anything but merely a rhetoric device?

I'm not going to attempt to speak on the dudes behalf, but there is quite easily another way of interpreting this and it is the following:

- OP thinks the Aurora is on a different plane than the other T1 tanks
- He suggests changes that make it more like the other three T1 tanks ("Lowering their range and fixing their hp to the lower range of the other tanks")
- Other users advise that putting the Aurora on the same plane as the other three reduces factional diversity
- Techmind suggests a change that keeps the Aurora seperate from the other three (the same 'diversity') but improves the unit.

I consider this interpretation as valid.

went ahead and called him stupid.

I called the idea stupid and gave my reasoning. Don't attempt to paint it as some sort of personal attack.

I don't know dude... I just get the vibe that the only reason you are here is to argue or lord over players that are slightly below you in rating...

Likewise.

I gave a legitimate response to an OP that you, or anyone on the balance team would otherwise gloss over as not being worth the time (because it suggests random changes with no iteration or testing) The only reason I want to know the skill level (and replays, for the 3rd or 4th time) is the perspective I already spoke about. Is the OP complaining about the Aurora's very valid weaknesses or is he complaining about losing those "head on large t1 engagements" that you confirmed as being good for them? I don't know that, because the user is not using an account name that I can trace back to the game.

You're only talking here because you wanted to correct me, and you're only answering questions here because you're already "in". If you were not going to contribute to the thread anyway, I suggest you just leave it.

You can't both scoff at lower rated players' opinions and argue with someone much higher rated.

I've treated everyone here as fair game. That includes you, that includes a higher skilled player I actually respect, that includes my trainees like Azraeel, and that includes a user I don't know the skill level of. You're the only person bringing up rating here. I don't hide anything about my skill level through different names or accounts and you should feel free to investigate what i've done on this client at any time.

Of course if hoplite/mongoose was the only weakness of aurora then aurora would be quite strong indeed!

I mentioned that they have other weaknesses in the second paragraph of the quoted text.
I don't attempt to assume what's going on in your life but your rhetoric shifted into something quite repulsive. Don't take whatever happened out on me.

However I can see why this would be an issue for lower rated players (wink wink).

Why try to take an ethical highground early on and then throw it away here? I would be much happier if you just called me a shitter to my face instead of whatever this is.

I'm not going to continue talking to somebody attempting to cast me as a villian. Please stop that, or i'll go back to waiting upon OP's replays.
Apologies for off topic. Still waiting on some clarification OP.

[techmind_]

bla-bla-bla, something-something my opinion

Original post mentioned stats, so your "opinion" does not matter.

Lets check his stats, we will do a simple script which loads all wins in ~2 month period and counts what was the faction (it does mix global & ladder games thought):

This is the script so you can re-check the stats yourself (Edit: v2).

Code: Select all

<?php

$pages = 30;
$size = 10000;
$total_games = 0;
$factions = [1 => [], 2 => [], 3 => [], 4 => [], 5 => [], 6 => []];

for ($p = 1; $p < $pages; $p++)
{
   echo date('Y-m-d H:i:s') . ": Page $p of $pages\n";
   //$json = file_get_contents("https://api.faforever.com/data/gamePlayerStats?sort=-id&include=player&page[size]=${size}&filter[gamePlayerStats]=score%3E0&page[number]=${p}");
   $json = file_get_contents("https://api.faforever.com/data/gamePlayerStats?sort=-id&include=player&page[size]=${size}&page[number]=${p}&filter[gamePlayerStats]=score!=0");
   $arr = json_decode($json, true);   

   foreach ($arr['data'] as $k => $v)
   {
      $fac = $v['attributes']['faction'];
      if (empty($factions[$fac]))
      {
         $factions[$fac] = ['wins' => 0, 'games' => 0];
      }
      if ($v['attributes']['afterMean'] > 1200)
      {
         if ($v['attributes']['score'] != 0)
         {            
            $scoreTime = $v['attributes']['scoreTime'];            
            $factions[$fac]['games']++;
            
            if ($v['attributes']['score'] > 0)
            {
               $factions[$fac]['wins']++;
            }
            if ($fac >= 1 && $fac <= 4)
            {
               $total_games++;
            }
         }
      }
   }   
}

// nomads ?
unset($factions[5]);
unset($factions[6]);

echo "LAST entry time:" . $scoreTime . ", games - $total_games \n";

foreach ($factions as $i => $val)
{
   $factions[$i]['win_pct'] = $factions[$i]['wins'] / $factions[$i]['games'];
   $factions[$i]['usage_pct'] = $factions[$i]['games'] / $total_games;
}

var_dump($factions);


Output:

Code: Select all

...outdated


Wanna try to guess who is 2 & 4 ?
2 out of 4 factions is noob trap in trying to win. "Perfect" balance.
TLDR: aeon bad, sera also bad, "trainer's team member opinion" is just opinion and does not conform to reality.

[biass]

You've lost the plot mate.

[FemtoZetta]

2 out of 4 factions is noob trap in trying to win. "Perfect" balance.
TLDR: aeon bad, sera also bad, "trainer's team member opinion" is just opinion and does not conform to reality.

That conclusion is completely invalid. Your stats only show the percentage of games where that faction was in the winning team. It doesn't take into account how often those factions were chosen compared to how often they win.
UEF and Cybran are just played more, so it's obvious that they show up more in the winner team. You would get similar stats when looking at the losing team.

[advena]

Techmind
As I see you updated script to give requested values

Can you update script output?

Also, can you filter rating or (if impossible) 1vs1 games?

[techmind_]

Techmind
As I see you updated script to give requested values

Can you update script output?

Also, can you filter rating or (if impossible) 1vs1 games?

Latest version with >1k rating (only 1x1 games), actually faf stats are kinda broken, wins are mostly saved in database (because winner finishes the game), but loses - not really (i guess they are lost of you quit before faf sends replay if you alt-f4). Data is scewed to 'winnings'' cause lots of defeats are not saved at all.

Code: Select all

LAST entry time:2020-03-07T14:23:14Z, games - 102331
array(4) {
  [1]=>
  array(10) {
    ["wins"]=>
    int(15111)
    ["games"]=>
    int(31311)
    ["small_rating"]=>
    int(67451)
    ["games_vs"]=>
    array(4) {
      [1]=>
      int(108)
      [2]=>
      int(152)
      [3]=>
      int(307)
      [4]=>
      int(116)
    }
    ["wins_vs"]=>
    array(4) {
      [1]=>
      float(0.94444444444444)
      [2]=>
      float(0.5)
      [3]=>
      float(0.54723127035831)
      [4]=>
      float(0.47413793103448)
    }
    ["inc_data"]=>
    int(15130)
    ["nomads_data"]=>
    int(59)
    ["game_ids_cnt"]=>
    int(15872)
    ["win_pct"]=>
    float(0.48260994538661)
    ["usage_pct"]=>
    float(0.30597766072842)
  }
  [2]=>
  array(10) {
    ["wins"]=>
    int(9795)
    ["games"]=>
    int(19698)
    ["small_rating"]=>
    int(31669)
    ["inc_data"]=>
    int(11896)
    ["games_vs"]=>
    array(4) {
      [1]=>
      int(135)
      [2]=>
      int(12)
      [3]=>
      int(160)
      [4]=>
      int(80)
    }
    ["wins_vs"]=>
    array(4) {
      [1]=>
      float(0.51851851851852)
      [2]=>
      int(1)
      [3]=>
      float(0.525)
      [4]=>
      float(0.4875)
    }
    ["nomads_data"]=>
    int(46)
    ["game_ids_cnt"]=>
    int(12329)
    ["win_pct"]=>
    float(0.49725860493451)
    ["usage_pct"]=>
    float(0.19249298843948)
  }
  [3]=>
  array(10) {
    ["wins"]=>
    int(17494)
    ["games"]=>
    int(33724)
    ["small_rating"]=>
    int(53471)
    ["games_vs"]=>
    array(4) {
      [1]=>
      int(354)
      [2]=>
      int(153)
      [3]=>
      int(97)
      [4]=>
      int(182)
    }
    ["wins_vs"]=>
    array(4) {
      [1]=>
      float(0.53107344632768)
      [2]=>
      float(0.59477124183007)
      [3]=>
      float(0.94845360824742)
      [4]=>
      float(0.57692307692308)
    }
    ["inc_data"]=>
    int(15525)
    ["nomads_data"]=>
    int(94)
    ["game_ids_cnt"]=>
    int(16405)
    ["win_pct"]=>
    float(0.51874036294627)
    ["usage_pct"]=>
    float(0.32955800295121)
  }
  [4]=>
  array(10) {
    ["wins"]=>
    int(9041)
    ["games"]=>
    int(17598)
    ["small_rating"]=>
    int(23354)
    ["inc_data"]=>
    int(11326)
    ["games_vs"]=>
    array(4) {
      [1]=>
      int(115)
      [2]=>
      int(70)
      [3]=>
      int(173)
      [4]=>
      int(22)
    }
    ["wins_vs"]=>
    array(4) {
      [1]=>
      float(0.66086956521739)
      [2]=>
      float(0.55714285714286)
      [3]=>
      float(0.5028901734104)
      [4]=>
      float(0.95454545454545)
    }
    ["nomads_data"]=>
    int(38)
    ["game_ids_cnt"]=>
    int(11744)
    ["win_pct"]=>
    float(0.51375156267758)
    ["usage_pct"]=>
    float(0.1719713478809)
  }
}


[Endranii]

Hey Mr.Techmind. Could you please remove your post considering the fact it's a bunch of wrong numbers that only support your claim due to you being unable to properly work with data provided by API?

Like please leave this stuff to Softly.