Nerf / Eliminate RAS option for SACUs

[ZLO_RD]

Actually reclaim not even a problem: static defences are too good if choke points are present.
Either t2/t3 shields & tmd need nerf so losing static defence would be possible to massed mmls(which cost way more than pd2 + tmd for same dps).
Or t2+ units need more alpha strike or sustained dps or HP so they could quickly overwhelm defences.

Pretty much shields are the problem they are just too efficient hp/mass wise. Giving them much longer recharge time or very low passive defence would solve the problem of defences being "too good". Actually t3 shields are not that mass-hp efficient the real problem is t2.

If static defences will not be good even in choke points then what is the point of those static defences?
Almost any decent map has multiple attack paths or at least you will need to giveup mapcontrol to be able to turtle.
Make defences on one frot. Enemy will just attack on other front.
if map is turtly then it is still beneficial to just keep ecoing

t2 shields are great that is true. Maybe little more nerf is needed, maybe not.
But usually problem is when you have many t2 shield and they keep recharging and tanking damage. But we have introduced shield damage overspill to nerf shield spam. Also shields themselfs were nerfed some time ago https://content.faforever.com/patchnote ... Structures

Often problem occures when 2 players are spawned pretty close to each other (like on wonder). so they just go to the edge of their base and start to build t2 arty firebase can reach from mid of the map to the enemy base, and then they use t2 pd + t2 shield to defend. And player that defends at base may even have disadvantage of having less space to put shields .
Alot depends on the map here. Usually you need to have decent advantage to be able to make firebase right next to enemy base.

I think if we nerf defences even more and attempt to force people to use units they may just start playing maps where you can't attack enemy base at all or make maps with smaller gaps xD.

[Mach]

theres a reason game enders are called game enders, game stops the tech race at t4, with enough time given players can defend themselves from any non-game-ender attack, and only game enders can win you the game (whoever can get more faster and use them better and not lose to enemy game enders)

I find it interesting how game changes so far at game ender stage, where it turns from using units to attack enemy while defending your base (conventional RTS) to bases themselves attacking each other directly as the main fight going on in match (basically bases themselves being giant units), other units being like ants walking around them compared, its kinda more like at late game base itself is a giant customizable unit you modify by how you build it with shields being its "hp", arty and other game enders its "turrets", and then 1v1 the enemy base "unit"

the real problem here is that RAS sacus are the ultimate gray goo unit, being able to do everything, including give eco by simply existing yet being tankier than any other eco building + mobile (huge ability for an eco unit), at least massfab farms (other late game eco solution) are vulnerable (and immobile) like rest of eco is in this game

[techmind_]

If static defences will not be good even in choke points then what is the point of those static defences?
Almost any decent map has multiple attack paths or at least you will need to giveup mapcontrol to be able to turtle.
Make defences on one frot. Enemy will just attack on other front.
if map is turtly then it is still beneficial to just keep ecoing

t2 shields are great that is true. Maybe little more nerf is needed, maybe not.

T2 pd costs ~400 mass any t2 and have 2k hp unit costs 200-400 , any t2 unit have less. Even adding 1 t2 pd + 1 t2 shield to choke points makes any army stationed there way better. Having only static defences is risky cause they cant move to another choke point. Having 1 pd + 1 shield at choke points makes it way more protected with same amount of mass units in form of units + pd's.

[LabPunk]

A t2/t3 pd builtime nerf might be nice, also reduces its effectiveness as panic building v t3/t4 rush and encourages building mobile units.

[Mach]

so I thought about what if sacus with ras upgrade has larger damage when they blow up, or had their hp reduced a lot, which would get them to more where massfabs are at (vulnerable and chainable if close to each other), yet having advantage over them with buildpower and mobility (and other upgrades)

[LabPunk]

Aeon sacu can get RAS+Teleporter.
Increase it's death nuke and it could cause problems.

[Mach]

easily solvable by putting teleport and ras on same upgrade slot, so its impossible to get both on sacu at same time

[Strogo]

We should simply nerf ras sacu efficiency either by increasing its cost or by reducing income. There are some nice calculations in this topic which shows that sacus aren't that ineffective compare to mass fabs grids. Even if sacus are 1.3-1.5 times worse (depends on mass fabs grid adjacency and how much mass your invest in static shields to cover it), this is still nothing and you always pick ras sacu, considering they are mobile, tanky, have gun and bp and require little space. Btw in vanilla fa sacu costs 9k mass + 2.5k for ras upgrade.

I know that maps are bad and players like to eco etc etc (let's hope for tmm ). But honesly, it doesn't really matter why we have these situations where it's better to just hold and try to outeco your opponent with this extra eco options. We should simply accept the fact that they exist and then try to balance stuff. As for me, ras sacu should be at least 3 times less effective than mass fabs grids, in this case they will become more like backup/emergency eco, instead of totally valid option to expand your eco when you at full t3 mex. And if you want something more or less effective, then build vulnerable mass fabs grids.

[keyser]

There are already some PR on the table by the balance team, like this one : https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/2866

[CPTANT]

I completely agree with this thread.

Give me one reason why RAS SACU spam is interesting from a design perspective as an eco option. They have no downsides, they scale infinitely and bypass all restrictions such as space and vulnerability that come with massfab farms, how is that interesting?

Efficient RAS SACU's were not even originally in the game, they used to cost like 3 times what they do now. The RAS upgrade was a way of gaining back some costs from a SACU you already build.