Solace Firing Pattern

[Plasma_Wolf]

The Solace is almost never built. T2 torp bombers are a better option because of mass/damage, but the two don't differ that much from each other. The Solace costs 6.11 T2 torp bombers, and per run does 5.33 times the damage. One of the main issues with the Solace is that the weapon doesn't work very well. With some basic micro, a group of Solaces loses against T3 subhunters (what the Solace is supposed to be a hard counter for). Move the subs away from the solaces, in the same direction as they're going, and a large part of the depth charges expire before they hit the subs.

Before the reason of the Solace not being built can be worked out, the weapon needs to work properly.

[ThomasHiatt]

The biggest problem with the solace is that it dies to a single cruiser, if you send 1 solace vs a cruiser it kills the cruiser and also dies. If you send 5 torps vs a cruiser they will kill it and some will live, the 5 torps are also cheaper and do more damage than a single solace. The only thing the solace has going for it is that it has slightly less buildtime than 5 torps and flies a little bit faster.

[armacham01]

How do you get 5.33x the damage? Unless I'm reading the unit DB wrong, it's only half that. DPS for skimmer is 75 (750 every 10 seconds). DPS for solace is 160 (2000 damage every 12.5 seconds). It's barely more than double the DPS. And if you don't consider the slower recharge rate, 2000 is only 2.67x more than 750.

In what situation is the Solace currently better than a mass-equivalent number of t2 torpedo bombers?

Maybe they are better for attacking a mix of frigates, destroyers, mobile flak, and interceptors, especially if you can bring them home to repair later. But it sounds like they are worse at attacking a strong T2 navy (with cruisers, perhaps protected by stealth or shields) and they are just as countered by ASFs as T2 torpedo planes are. So by the time you get them, there's no point in making them?

And, after we fix the issues raised by Plasma_Wolf, how do we tweak this unit so that it is worth making? Add stealth or jamming so sometimes SAMs will miss it unless the cruisers are behind other units, like frigates, to give them vision? If isolated cruisers were easy for a solace to pick off and survive killing, they would have at least some purpose. To force your opponent's navy to bunch up more.

Maybe give them enough damage to 1-pass a cruiser, even if you slow down the recharge rate on their weapons, so they are much more likely to survive if they are attacking into just a single cruiser (or if you have an equal number of solaces and unshielded cruisers, some of the solaces survive).

Or make them more like mercies. Rather than making them expensive and survivable, make them cheaper and you expect to lose them after 1-2 passes (unless they are targeting something with weak AA, like frigates or destroyers). This would also make it harder to "bank" them up (because a couple ASF finding them could completely wreck them) or to send all the way across the map unless you have air control, so they would be more about defense than offense--which would mean they have a role similar to HARMS.

If we're worried about them being OP, we should only compare them to two units: T2 torpedo bombers, and HARMS. HARMS can completely shut down a strong T3 naval push (not all by themselves, but in conjunction with some navy) so why shouldn't solaces also be able have that kind of impact on the game?

[Ithilis_Quo]

How do you get 5.33x the damage? Unless I'm reading the unit DB wrong, it's only half that. DPS for skimmer is 75 (750 every 10 seconds). DPS for solace is 160 (2000 damage every 12.5 seconds). It's barely more than double the DPS. And if you don't consider the slower recharge rate, 2000 is only 2.67x more than 750.

Solace do 4000dmg per pass, and yes single pass cruiser.

Big alfa damage can be part of the problem, that you waster so much dmg were a group of T2 bombers will not.
- Solution can be multiple weapon set where on attack move will target multiple units per once. but its problematic and risky

Another approach is to add more speed and hp to solace, so will survive a single cruiser with about 25% hp that makes it a more valuable unit, while can more easily reach the repair station.

[armacham01]

"Solace do 4000dmg per pass, and yes single pass cruiser."

That is true.

But then why does the unit DB say it only does 2k damage per pass? Why does it say the solace has only 160 dps?

Even the in-game numbers are wrong. When I clicked on a T3 air factory, and hovered the mouse over the solace, it said 2k damage and 160 dps.

Why would the unit DB be wrong?

Is there something special about how the Solace has RackSalvoSize of 2? That means it has double the firepower, and the unit DB/in-game display stats don't take that into account?

[ZLO_RD]

Why would the unit DB be wrong?

Unfortunately, the only source of absolutely correct information is ingame testing... you can also look at blueprints and take in account engine quirks and will also get accurate results.
But database uses some logic to get data from blueprints and it not always does it correctly, and it does not take engine into account (engine stuff probably does not matter in this case, but still, engine can't operate with time-intervals below 0.1 seconds, and can't shoot between game ticks)

[Spy_Emanciator]

So build a few t2s up front to overwhelm aa then send the t3s to do surgical kills. your t3 sub group has overlapping anti-torp thats what your seeing happen. Also don't think about them as a solution to a naval threat, best application is to use them to tip favor in a somewhat even naval battle. Not the best at defeating navy alone.

also remember t1/t3 spy planes make a huge difference in drawing out the early volley from cruisers so time a flyby to start off.

[Deribus]

Would it be possible code-wise to have Solace torpedoes retarget if their initial target dies? That could made them into frigate killing machines.

[keyser]

Would it be possible code-wise to have Solace torpedoes retarget if their initial target dies? That could made them into frigate killing machines.

balance team already discussed this idea, we would to do that or allow solace torpedoes to penetrate the shields. We don't know how easily it can be achieved though.

[Plasma_Wolf]

I've done some testing and in the file

Code: Select all

AANTorpedoClusterSplit01_script.lua

from the projectiles folder, taking

Code: Select all

self:SetAcceleration(2.5)

and setting it to 5 will make it impossible for the T3 subhunters to kite out. Subhunters that survived in my testing did so because some torps hit a subhunter they were not supposed to.

I think that with their ability to hit Subhunters properly, the main issue of the Solace is fixed. Other targets that the Solace is used against are slower than the subhunter.