3709 feedback thread

[Armmagedon]

do you guys really use the com less with snipe mod?
i just watched that jagged replay and he standed in front of two t2 pds a lot of time also espi had units better positioned, for me jagged made a big mistake putting the com in such a bad situation, if snipemode wasnt enabled possibly the outcome could be lots of units dead and espi having the map control and all the mass of that battle and jagged just running away from that pds if he doesnt die to the spam anyway

[Tagada]

Snipes work mostly bcs they are not scouted or enemy isn't prepared but if that's not the thing then they just fail utterly. That's not the thing with snipe mode even if you are activly aware of it it's very hard to counter if you don't have insane advantage already, you can't just hide behind units.

[Tagada]

Do a test, cybran acu + 50 mantis vs cybran acu with 55 mantis. Put acu in front of their army, like 3m, then the smaller army do a shift g ,+ snipe mode move, second army just try to defend.
Btw idk what the exact unit number is but at some point with smaller army you can just win only bcs of snipemode

[Farmsletje]

Hey Farms just watched the first replay several times, i calculated the damage jagged took from t2 pds, since he started taking damage until he died he took 7.8k damage aproximely (should count also the acu regen), Also Espi pd were shooting meanwhile jagged t2 pds had no units in range so it is not the exact same position, espi was in the defensive(winning) position since jagged was pushing, 7.8k damage is equal to around 26 strikers hp, i think this certain game just shows a bad decision, and he just forced espi to send units all in, since it was the only option left, other way acu would have kept tanking pds and units would end up fucking pds and army.

On second replay, espi also likes trying jester snipes, corsairs snipes and sometimes they end up being a faillure what is the diference between those air snipes attemps and the all in land snipes? and also what is the definition of a normal game?. I dont think balance changes should be made to prevent people for trying certain strategies. If someone starts doing just t1 ghetto snipes and ruinning "normal games" because he wants to try it, shall we remove the ghetto snipe posibility?

There are multiple things wrong with this
- First of all as i said at the start i was counting from the moment pepsi shift g'd, which was around 11.15 - 11.18 (don't remember anymore) and jagged had 10k hp at the start of THAT. Jagged died at 11.34 which means that during the battle jagged has taken a maximum of (34 - 16) * 2 * 100 = 3.6k damage from the pd and no more. This means your calculation is way of the mark. I excluded the extra damage he had taken previously because he got 1. an extra hp boost from the t2 upgrade and 2 because at the moment i started the equation he still had 10k hp remaining which is normally a healthy acu.
- As i said in my last point i started counting from the moment pepsi shift g'd, and 1 to 2 seconds after that jaggeds pd started shooting units. Again it doesn't matter what happened before this timeframe.
- Also right before Jagged died pepsi still had enough units left to do atleast another 1k damage to him. This means that the impact of the t2 pd's was even less than 3.6k considering jagged likely still would've died if they only did 2.5k damage
- pepsi was NOT i repeat NOT in a defensive (winning) position. Anything but that. He was literally pd creeping onto jaggeds territory. This makes no sense whatsoever
- Bad decision where? Pushing with a bigger army with a better acu vs a faction that has a slight disadvantage defensively (because of worse pd's and worse t1 tank hp)? If this was a bad idea SOLELY because of the existance of snipemode than it is all the more reason to remove it.

The second game was an example about how snipemode influences ladder games. The reason why this is more impactfull than jester/corsair/w/e snipes has already been said before. Because it is way, i repeat WAY easier to accomplish. The main difference is that you have to properly invest in air snipes, but you don't have to invest ANYTHING in a snipemode snipe because whether you go for the snipe or not you will need the units anyway.

No, balance changes shouldn't be made to prevent people using certain strategies. HOWEVER if a strategy is super dominant to the point that a lot of people deem it gamebreakingly dominant it definitely should be changed. If this wouldn't be the case then we would still be stuck in old restorer balance where everybody said they were OP. "Want to change the OP restorer? Don't prevent people from trying certain strategies!!" As you can see this argument doesn't hold up.

well yea that is very poor execution of a snipe mode, he also didn't get enought units to be able to snipemode ACU. it looked like he was desperate, also it looked like game was lost for that guy even before 1rst shift+g + snipemode attempt. guy was powerstalling -200 for like 5 minutes... this game is not balanced enought to proove much about snipemode imho.

That is why it was an EXAMPLE of how snipemode can influence games. Doesn't matter whether the rest of the game was balanced or not. If i had been careless with my acu for 1 nanosecond he still could've been able to kill me.

i just watched that jagged replay and he standed in front of two t2 pds a lot of time also espi had units better positioned, for me jagged made a big mistake putting the com in such a bad situation, if snipemode wasnt enabled possibly the outcome could be lots of units dead and espi having the map control and all the mass of that battle and jagged just running away from that pds if he doesnt die to the spam anyway

So what you are arguing is pushing into 1, just 1 t2 pd is a big mistake? I mean if this IS the case with snipemode in the game then hooray we are allowed to push again. Also if snipemode wasn't enabled jagged would've had a very likely chance to win that fight. I have no fucking clue how you can even think pepsi crushes in that fight.

Also the "Jagged had a bad position" argument is entirely irrelevant because if jagged was the one that shift g'd + snipemoded into pepsi 2 seconds before pepsi did it then pepsi would likely be the one to die instead, which leads to my previous point. IF jagged had a worse position according to you then it means that the guy with the worse position just won because of snipemode which is something that should not happen. Also as i said before:

Now ofcourse you can argue that jagged could've done the same thing to pepsi before it was done to him, but this would have led us to the exact same scenario as i described before but just with the snipemode having a higher chance of working, which means that in almost EVERY scenario it leads to a player dying simply because of the existance of snipemode.

[Armmagedon]

Snipes work mostly bcs they are not scouted or enemy isn't prepared but if that's not the thing then they just fail utterly. That's not the thing with snipe mode even if you are activly aware of it it's very hard to counter if you don't have insane advantage already, you can't just hide behind units.

really you cant hide behind units? why?

[Ithilis_Quo]

The argument about "dumb gameplay strategies that ruin the normal game" is invalid on begin, while this game is so great because there are so many options on how to play it. This prohib players units to do what he want from them to do. If is some strategy too strong, too easy or too must to play that way, then there are units stats to play with. We will not remove TML when tml is too good, jast make it more expensive/weaker/slower/many option, but not remove it or better say not remove manual launch and let them fire automatic only via hardcode target priority.

When its game ender strategy even after fail attempt, because one side lose whole army, then we should by same principle remove Mercies and T2 bombers, because when player pump so much eco on attemp, that when fail will lose/win him game.

[Armmagedon]

Hey Farms just watched the first replay several times, i calculated the damage jagged took from t2 pds, since he started taking damage until he died he took 7.8k damage aproximely (should count also the acu regen), Also Espi pd were shooting meanwhile jagged t2 pds had no units in range so it is not the exact same position, espi was in the defensive(winning) position since jagged was pushing, 7.8k damage is equal to around 26 strikers hp, i think this certain game just shows a bad decision, and he just forced espi to send units all in, since it was the only option left, other way acu would have kept tanking pds and units would end up fucking pds and army.

On second replay, espi also likes trying jester snipes, corsairs snipes and sometimes they end up being a faillure what is the diference between those air snipes attemps and the all in land snipes? and also what is the definition of a normal game?. I dont think balance changes should be made to prevent people for trying certain strategies. If someone starts doing just t1 ghetto snipes and ruinning "normal games" because he wants to try it, shall we remove the ghetto snipe posibility?

There are multiple things wrong with this
- First of all as i said at the start i was counting from the moment pepsi shift g'd, which was around 11.15 - 11.18 (don't remember anymore) and jagged had 10k hp at the start of THAT. Jagged died at 11.34 which means that during the battle jagged has taken a maximum of (34 - 16) * 2 * 100 = 3.6k damage from the pd and no more. This means your calculation is way of the mark. I excluded the extra damage he had taken previously because he got 1. an extra hp boost from the t2 upgrade and 2 because at the moment i started the equation he still had 10k hp remaining which is normally a healthy acu.
- As i said in my last point i started counting from the moment pepsi shift g'd, and 1 to 2 seconds after that jaggeds pd started shooting units. Again it doesn't matter what happened before this timeframe.
- Also right before Jagged died pepsi still had enough units left to do atleast another 1k damage to him. This means that the impact of the t2 pd's was even less than 3.6k considering jagged likely still would've died if they only did 2.5k damage
- pepsi was NOT i repeat NOT in a defensive (winning) position. Anything but that. He was literally pd creeping onto jaggeds territory. This makes no sense whatsoever
- Bad decision where? Pushing with a bigger army with a better acu vs a faction that has a slight disadvantage defensively (because of worse pd's and worse t1 tank hp)? If this was a bad idea SOLELY because of the existance of snipemode than it is all the more reason to remove it.

The second game was an example about how snipemode influences ladder games. The reason why this is more impactfull than jester/corsair/w/e snipes has already been said before. Because it is way, i repeat WAY easier to accomplish. The main difference is that you have to properly invest in air snipes, but you don't have to invest ANYTHING in a snipemode snipe because whether you go for the snipe or not you will need the units anyway.

No, balance changes shouldn't be made to prevent people using certain strategies. HOWEVER if a strategy is super dominant to the point that a lot of people deem it gamebreakingly dominant it definitely should be changed. If this wouldn't be the case then we would still be stuck in old restorer balance where everybody said they were OP. "Want to change the OP restorer? Don't prevent people from trying certain strategies!!" As you can see this argument doesn't hold up.

well yea that is very poor execution of a snipe mode, he also didn't get enought units to be able to snipemode ACU. it looked like he was desperate, also it looked like game was lost for that guy even before 1rst shift+g + snipemode attempt. guy was powerstalling -200 for like 5 minutes... this game is not balanced enought to proove much about snipemode imho.

That is why it was an EXAMPLE of how snipemode can influence games. Doesn't matter whether the rest of the game was balanced or not. If i had been careless with my acu for 1 nanosecond he still could've been able to kill me.

i just watched that jagged replay and he standed in front of two t2 pds a lot of time also espi had units better positioned, for me jagged made a big mistake putting the com in such a bad situation, if snipemode wasnt enabled possibly the outcome could be lots of units dead and espi having the map control and all the mass of that battle and jagged just running away from that pds if he doesnt die to the spam anyway

So what you are arguing is pushing into 1, just 1 t2 pd is a big mistake? I mean if this IS the case with snipemode in the game then hooray we are allowed to push again. Also if snipemode wasn't enabled jagged would've had a very likely chance to win that fight. I have no fucking clue how you can even think pepsi crushes in that fight.

he wasnt just pushing against one pds, espi there had the same amount of units and 2-t2 pds and their units where better positioned
there are strategys super dominant in different maps, t1 spam is a meta in everymap would you say that thats imba? that something is dominant dont make an argument for say that is imbalanced, and even with that i dont think you see that sniping trys so many games, we should check replays of for example the last 100 games, but the thing is that i dont find it something bad for the gameplay to make units shot where i want, remove snipeStuff is just make units dumber.

P.D: someone knows how open the fafreplays for have some kind of readable data, i could maybe program an algorithm for analyze them with AI

[ZLO_RD]

Snipes work mostly bcs they are not scouted or enemy isn't prepared but if that's not the thing then they just fail utterly. That's not the thing with snipe mode even if you are activly aware of it it's very hard to counter if you don't have insane advantage already, you can't just hide behind units.

really you cant hide behind units? why?

it is not that easy as you have seen with example with jagged... we really need to dig that crimson feud tournament replays for you
i tihnk unit may shoot up on ACU so you can't just block shots with your units

P.D: someone knows how open the fafreplays for have some kind of readable data, i could maybe program an algorithm for analyze them with AI

you need to go to Zulip with that, moderators can invite you. there are multiple versions of replay parsers.

[Farmsletje]

The argument about "dumb gameplay strategies that ruin the normal game" is invalid on begin, while this game is so great because there are so many options on how to play it. This prohib players units to do what he want from them to do. If is some strategy too strong, too easy or too must to play that way, then there are units stats to play with. We will not remove TML when tml is too good, jast make it more expensive/weaker/slower/many option, but not remove it.

This is simply untrue. The addition of snipemode, if anything, PREVENTS players to choose these "so many ways" to play the game because a fair number of games end due to snipemode in the t1 stage before any player could've transitioned into anything.

Also in an ideal world we could buff acu hp to have snipemode have less of an impact yes. Practically it does not work out that way though. Buff acu hp cause of snipemode > now t2 air needs a buff to offset the change > now t2 air is too strong vs non acu targets > buff other targets too > etc etc. If you ONLY want snipemode have less of an impact on the game then it's impossible to fix this with simple unit stat changes because you either will go a full loop where every unit will have higher stats, or some other kind of stat will be offset which means that in order to fix snipemode you offset other balance aspects of the game

When its game ender strategy even after fail attempt, because one side lose whole army, then we should by same principle remove Mercies and T2 bombers, because when player pump so much eco on attemp, that when fail will lose/win him game.

You ignore multiple arguments i made. First of all the frequency in which it happens is important. If for example over 50% of all 1v1 games would end up in t2 air snipes then yes, t2 air would have definitely been nerfed. The thing is: It doesn't happen. And the reason why air snipes are way more uncommon is because they have a clear counter whilest snipemode does not. Make some flak and/or inties and you can still push with your acu whilest enemy has t2 air. You cannot simply make more tanks and still push with your enemy because even with an army advantage you may still die to snipemode.

[Farmsletje]

he wasnt just pushing against one pds, espi there had the same amount of units and 2-t2 pds and their units where better positioned
there are strategys super dominant in different maps, t1 spam is a meta in everymap would you say that thats imba? that something is dominant dont make an argument for say that is imbalanced, and even with that i dont think you see that sniping trys so many games, we should check replays of for example the last 100 games, but the thing is that i dont find it something bad for the gameplay to make units shot where i want, remove snipeStuff is just make units dumber.

Have you ignored what i said? The MOMENT pepsi went for snipemode is when jaggeds pd started shooting and from that point i made my calculation so you cannot rule out jaggeds 2 t2 pd's (which had like 1k mass total killed at the end of the fight). Like i said before Jagged had 1.5k more mass in total PLUS a gun acu so it's simply not true what you are saying.

Why are you arguing about t1 spam being imba? That has absolutely zero relevance to this entire debate. You cannot, i repeat CANNOT call t1 spam dominant. Not unless you call t2 units dominant in the t2 stage. t3 units dominant in the t3 stage. t4 units dominant in the t4 stage etc. and at that point you can literally start calling every unit mix at a certain tech level dominant, aka almost everything in the entire game.