3709 feedback thread

[Rikai]

Rhino is 1,79 (worst T2 main tank)

Rhino. the "worst" T2 tank. I beg to differ
I think your formula should encompass things like range, or even speed. Both make the Obsidian so... clumsy.

[advena]

Rhino is 1,79 (worst T2 main tank)

Rhino. the "worst" T2 tank. I beg to differ
I think your formula should encompass things like range, or even speed. Both make the Obsidian so... clumsy.

Obsidian is worst when it comes to shooting in something T1 (very usual situation). And all T2 main tanks (exept Rhino) will survive extra shoot on 50-200 HP

Rhino is worst when it all about T2 main tanks vs T2 main tanks (only noob like me with another such noob will be in such situation). Also there is stories about missing shoots

[LabPunk]

Rhino is 1,79 (worst T2 main tank)

Rhino. the "worst" T2 tank. I beg to differ
I think your formula should encompass things like range, or even speed. Both make the Obsidian so... clumsy.

Obsidians and rhino's both suck, that's why Aeon have Harbie, and Cybran have Loyaliiiiiiiwaitaminutetheynerfedtheloyalistsintooblivion

[TheKoopa]

Neither of those units are bad, and not only that but the rhino is supplemented by the medusa in the t2 stage

[Little Miss Murder]

Neither of those units are bad, and not only that but the rhino is supplemented by the medusa in the t2 stage

Throw in medusas and watch people complain how rhinos are op.

[LabPunk]

Neither of those units are bad, and not only that but the rhino is supplemented by the medusa in the t2 stage

I hate the medusa argument, it's a bad argument and it's always used to shutdown discussion of cybran t2.
Firstly, when compared to the Ilsie and Pillar, yes, they are both bad, objectively they are worse than those units mass for mass, and the perform even worse in real battlefield situations.
Secondly, the medusa argument is flawed because medusa are only good in the t2 stage against other cybrans.
Aeon and UEF have t2 shields, which negate the stun. Aurora die to 1 arty shot anyway making the stun useless, and pillars operate with too many units for the stun to truly matter.
To suggest that rhino + medusa is better than ilsie + zthuee is utter madness.

[TheKoopa]

Yes it's a complete shutdown of a discussion about cybran t2 because it's not bad at all, quite the opposite in fact

Fun fact stun still goes through shields on the very edge, and it's anyway impossible to micro them 100% perfect so that units are constantly covered

Also 10000000000 medusa does omega damage to shields and considering they cost literally only 1 more mass than a lab, this makes them ridiculously efficient vs shields

[techmind_]

Firebeetles need mass cost reduction.

Why:
Lets compare them to mercies
-5 speed, land not air, +50 less mass, -4500 energy.

But requires a t2 air(13k energy, 330 metal) to get to some place, so actually +1k energy, +33 metal(if we load 10 in t2 cybran trasport).

So essentially -17 mass, -3500 energy for land based 2x slower mercy with 60% of damage.
~3-4 will die from each 10 to auto-attacks from com or t1 pd anyway.

Actually overcharging them will kill all of them (2500 worth of mass) for 5k energy, which is insanely cost-effective. Only overcharging experimental is more mass-efficient per hp spent per mass (and you NEVER want to use acu for that).

So countering com-snipe is not that hard if player actually looks at his comm on map.

You need 10+ to 1-hit kill com, so essentially you have to commit 2 transports worth of beetles to com-snipe (20 beetles, 10k ehp). And that is 5k mass, dropping 8 t2 rhinos(same 5k mass) will get you 690 dps on spot so ~20 seconds to kill com, it will take you LESS time and those tanks would have 16k ehp (+6k). And those rhinos even if you have to drop them early can still act as raiding force, beetles - can't.

So they need -30-40% mass cost reduction to be useful and cost-efficient vs "mercy" and "dropping regular t2 tanks".
+ You lose mass if they do dmg, but for regular units you don't so maybe even less mass cost.

[MrTBSC]

Firebeetles need mass cost reduction.

Why:
Lets compare them to mercies
-5 speed, land not air, +50 less mass, -4500 energy.

But requires a t2 air(13k energy, 330 metal) to get to some place, so actually +1k energy, +33 metal(if we load 10 in t2 cybran trasport).

So essentially -17 mass, -3500 energy for land based 2x slower mercy with 60% of damage.
~3-4 will die from each 10 to auto-attacks from com or t1 pd anyway.

Actually overcharging them will kill all of them (2500 worth of mass) for 5k energy, which is insanely cost-effective. Only overcharging experimental is more mass-efficient per hp spent per mass (and you NEVER want to use acu for that).

So countering com-snipe is not that hard if player actually looks at his comm on map.

You need 10+ to 1-hit kill com, so essentially you have to commit 2 transports worth of beetles to com-snipe (20 beetles, 10k ehp). And that is 5k mass, dropping 8 t2 rhinos(same 5k mass) will get you 690 dps on spot so ~20 seconds to kill com, it will take you LESS time and those tanks would have 16k ehp (+6k). And those rhinos even if you have to drop them early can still act as raiding force, beetles - can't.

So they need -30-40% mass cost reduction to be useful and cost-efficient vs "mercy" and "dropping regular t2 tanks".
+ You lose mass if they do dmg, but for regular units you don't so maybe even less mass cost.

weren´t they made in this patch to be more antiarmy?
in that case the question should be how easy or difficult they are to use in that area ..

imo beetles should not be just used for commsnipes, they should be either used as antiarmy or as a anti economy snipeoption but for any of these they need the propper useability ..
i would even say that in case of them being a ecosnipeoption with their old damage maybe comms should get a specific damagereduction from them, or beetles just not be able to be dropped on a commander´s head ..

in case they stay as an antiarmyoption maybe friendlyfire with other beetles can be disabled (preferably no friendly fire at all but that might be too strong) ....

As for math, the most significant change in this patch is Blase cost change. Now it's dps*hp/mass^2 stat is 1,62
For comparison:
Rhino is 1,79 (worst T2 main tank)
Old Blase is 1,085
Old Wagner is 1,64
New Wagner is 1,36

imo wagner should get a slight costreduction for how much HP it lost ... it´s on the same cost of the rhino while heavily lacking the surviveability even if it´s a amphibius unit and as such can avoid damage being moved into water that way, i think it´s way too much .. mass cost should be around 275 with aproppriate powercost, not sure about productiontime .. it´s still quite strong in alphadamage and versatile to use with rhinos imo ..

[techmind_]

weren´t they made in this patch to be more antiarmy?
in that case the question should be how easy or difficult they are to use in that area ..

imo beatles should not be just used for comesnipes, they should be either used as antiarmy or as a anti economy snipeoption but for any of these they need the propper useability ..
i would even say that in case of them beinga ecosnipeoption with their old damage maybe comms should get a specific damagereduction from them, or beatles just ot be able to drop on a commanders head ..

in case they stay as an antiarmy option maybe friendlyfire with other beatles can be disabled (preferably no friendly fire at all but that might be too strong) ....

They are 500 hp and run in pack because they are too small, maybe something like 10% friendly fire dmg could work, so you can run them as 5-a pack (2-3 will die anyway). And 5 speed is not that good vs army. They should be more mass-efficient that regular t2 unit, cause otherwise its just eco-negative to use them(single t2 unit will kil them in ~3 seconds it takes 5 speed unit to get in the face of a unit assuming 32 average range of t2, its even worse vs mml). And t2 'tanky' units have 1500+ hp.

For economy snipe they are only worth vs unprotected firebase, but radar/scout will counter them and t1 engi can build t1 pd in 40 seconds (~ time to get into default 200 radar range).
They cost more than pd1/pd2 so even not that great idea to use them on pd itself. Maybe 20-30% damage VS PD could be effective 'anti-buildings' buff. (Using army is still superior to defend bases and they can be good if they kill aoe worth of t2 units). Also adding upkeep free stealth could work as 'anti-eco-buildings' buff.