T1 subs

[Steel_Panther]

T1 subs need a buff.

[keyser]

https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/2849
fresh from 3 days ago

[Steel_Panther]

https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/2849
fresh from 3 days ago

That seems very minimal. They will still be practically useless compared to frigates. They are terrible on offense because torp launchers and torp bombers super crush them, and they will still be easy to torp if they are trying to attack and you just need to move your frigates out slightly to get vision. Or even just have a 64 mass t1 sonar? And they will be just as useless on defense because their dps is still garbage compared to frigates, which are still cheaper.

[keyser]

i still think it's going to be a good buff to them. Being harder to spot, they will be harder to target with torpedo bomber.
This will get tested to see how it goes out.

T1 subs already have their job on map with water mexx. You need to be careful while balancing them. This is first step, I communicate more on it, when we will have played game with that change and estimate its impact on the game.

[Apofenas]

In first versions on EQ Ithilis removed sonar and water vision from most surface ships so only subs, Coopers and Destroyers could see other subs. Even those intel changes didn't really make anything for T1 subs and you expect magic to happen after nerfing frigate sonar? lol

The problem of this unit is that it has no real role in this game. T1 subs would just turn into mass donation once first t2 unit appears. T2 torp bombers would still one-shot those. They can't even deal with t1 frigates because of absurdly low 37.5 DPS and same speed so Frigate could infinitly run away.

T1 sub needs a direct hp, DPS and speed buff, not some cancer changes with frigate intel.

[Farmsletje]

I don't get why people always want insanely huge changes to happen all at once. sub/frig balance has basically been untouched for many years and now that it's being looked at it's instantly "its not enoooooooough".

Besides that, subs do have a clear role in the game which is being the counter to frigs (and to a lesser extent map control for maps with underwater mexes). They might not be amazing at it but it is their role nonetheless. Also the fact that t1 subs aren't being spammed like frigs doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad unit. I still see it get made a lot more than labs which aren't really deemed bad. It just means that its usefullness is limited to a short timespan. Useless once t2 navy hits the field? That still generally means 8+ min of usefullness. The frig intel nerf is also meant to tackle the torp bomber issue since it will make it a lot harder to spot subs. From 82 to 16 sonar radius is a huge fucking difference to the point that in theory subs could be impossible to be torped if microed. Ofcourse this won't happen in games as you can't invest infinite apm in your subs, but the player with the torp bombers also has to pay quite some more attention to lock on the sub in the short timespan when it became visible.

[Apofenas]

Besides that, subs do have a clear role in the game which is being the counter to frigs (and to a lesser extent map control for maps with underwater mexes). They might not be amazing at it but it is their role nonetheless. Also the fact that t1 subs aren't being spammed like frigs doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad unit. I still see it get made a lot more than labs which aren't really deemed bad. It just means that its usefullness is limited to a short timespan.

Except it takes around a minute for 1 submarine to kill an idle Frigate. I remember ZLO had very old POV on Roanoke where he showed how to micro frigate around island or run away to the map corner so the sub would infinitly chase that Frigate because these 2 units have same speed and even if submarine somehow gets in range - it would stop and fire salvo while letting the Frigate get a distance again. That's quite the usefullness!

The frig intel nerf is also meant to tackle the torp bomber issue since it will make it a lot harder to spot subs. From 82 to 16 sonar radius is a huge fucking difference to the point that in theory subs could be impossible to be torped if microed. Ofcourse this won't happen in games as you can't invest infinite apm in your subs, but the player with the torp bombers also has to pay quite some more attention to lock on the sub in the short timespan when it became visible.

If you see Frigate is being shot by torpedoes you could just put torp bomber on assist order. Torp bomber has its own sonar with 45 radius - it will see and lock itself on that sub.

This again reminds on about Hawkey's naval rebalance proposal a few years ago and IceDreamer's research mod. All of those were aimed to remove sonar and water vision from majority of naval units to make subs more viable option and force you to build anti-sub units against them. T1 sub could be directly under destroyer and you wouldn't see them untill you got your own sub. How did that work? You took a couple subs in unit mix and than destroyers ate enemy sub spam. It took Ithilis 20-30 versions of EQ to realise that it's better to direct buff t1 sub instead of fcking around with units intel stats.

[Steel_Panther]

I don't get why people always want insanely huge changes to happen all at once. sub/frig balance has basically been untouched for many years and now that it's being looked at it's instantly "its not enoooooooough".

Besides that, subs do have a clear role in the game which is being the counter to frigs (and to a lesser extent map control for maps with underwater mexes). They might not be amazing at it but it is their role nonetheless. Also the fact that t1 subs aren't being spammed like frigs doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad unit. I still see it get made a lot more than labs which aren't really deemed bad. It just means that its usefullness is limited to a short timespan. Useless once t2 navy hits the field? That still generally means 8+ min of usefullness. The frig intel nerf is also meant to tackle the torp bomber issue since it will make it a lot harder to spot subs. From 82 to 16 sonar radius is a huge fucking difference to the point that in theory subs could be impossible to be torped if microed. Ofcourse this won't happen in games as you can't invest infinite apm in your subs, but the player with the torp bombers also has to pay quite some more attention to lock on the sub in the short timespan when it became visible.

Subs are certainly more useful for maps with underwater mexes, but the problem is they are not even very good at the role of countering frigates defensively. The only time they can really be used for that is if they follow enemy frigates for a long time dealing damage before they even get to your factories. Otherwise frigates still just kill all your factories and/or engies before subs can kill them. Even with the sonar nerf it seems quite likely the subs will be spotted and able to be torped in this situation.

I just don't think the sonar issue will matter that much, because the damage potential of t1 subs is still so low. Maybe if subs had a longer range that made them able to micro and stay hidden easier, this sonar change would make more of a difference. Maybe 40 range instead of 32 would allow that. But maybe the best solution is just making them cheaper, or giving them higher dps, or increasing their hp to survive one torp bomber pass.

[Endranii]

Honestly I feel like we are forgetting that T1 subs don't have to deal with nearly as many threats as frigates, which yes, are way more robust than your standard unit but also have to face different challenges than other more specialized units.
On land you don't really have units that require you to actually get tech 2 to reliably deal with a threat. While on sea you have what to deal with subs? Your own subs? Maybe torp def if enemy was fast enough to pressure your bay. But on land you can reliably use t1 units to deal with any bullshit enemy can throw at you. Aurora? Might make some bombers. Might get some sweet gun upgrades to deal with armies. Can just use arty to kill enemy PD's without any loses. But dealing with subs on open sea? Not much to do here, than get your own subs, OR RUSH T2 TO DEAL WITH T1 unit.

Also if your enemy is microing his fucking frigate then what stops you from emerging and microing your sub to have same DPS as frigate, while outranging them? Same deal with sieging enemy bays in case they don't have torp deff. You can emerge and deal the same DPS as frigates, or in case enemy have aurora/zue or even bombers you can just submerge and deal free damage.

By no means a unit having "evasion" like t1 subs should have good body and dps.

[____]

While on sea you have what to deal with subs? Your own subs?

Um yeah?

But dealing with subs on open sea? Not much to do here, than get your own subs, OR RUSH T2 TO DEAL WITH T1 unit.

You make it sound like getting a t2 air hq is some insane investment, when in fact it's not even a t2 mex, and you require one sooner or later anyway.

Also if your enemy is microing his fucking frigate then what stops you from emerging and microing your sub to have same DPS as frigate, while outranging them?

No amount of micro is going to make a sub have more dps than a frig. I think you are getting the terms "dps" and "overall damage caused by the unit" mixed up.

By no means a unit having "evasion" like t1 subs should have good body and dps.

Literally nobody asked for that?