MMLs kinda suck

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MMLs kinda suck

Postby Quant » 17 Sep 2019, 01:51

They are very situational, finicky to use, and kinda expensive for how slow they kill t2pd.
With their roughly 70 dps, it takes 2.5(equal mass to pd) ~11 seconds to kill a PD.
Its very easy to screw up and get them killed by walking into PD range, while its very hard to screw up PD micro.

+5 range and 25% reduced cost would make them a bit more useful and easier to handle.
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Re: MMLs kinda suck

Postby Endranii » 17 Sep 2019, 03:00

Honestly, why? They are capable of doing their Job just fine, and unless enemy is aeon then fending off increasing number of MML is just not gonna happen as they will always need to invest way more than it's worth in TMD, which is stationary unlike the MML's.
Also 10 range is a lot of space so if you somehow get your MML into their range then it's your problem, and if you are having problem with MML micro again static defences then what can I say? Attack move?
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Re: MMLs kinda suck

Postby armacham01 » 17 Sep 2019, 04:07

Mass Vipers OP. There is literally no counter to 55 Vipers. Replay ID #10225659

Spoiler: show
yes, I know there are multiple counters. I just thought I would share an amusing replay because the subject of MMLs came up.
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Re: MMLs kinda suck

Postby ANGRYABOUTELVES » 28 Jan 2020, 20:20

I don't think it's useful to compare a single T2 PD vs the equivalent mass in MMLs. That's not the situation they're used for; a single isolated T2 PD can just be rushed down by T2 tanks and destroyed. MMLs are primarily used en-masse to bombard firebases. 2.5 MMLs may take 11 seconds to blow up a single T2 PD, but as you scale up the mass cost and unit count on either side that time increases only slightly due to retargeting time. 10 MMLs will tear down 4 T2 PD in roughly 15-20 seconds, without losing any HP themselves, and can then go on to kill other buildings as well. 4 T2 PDs is a significant mass investment at the T2 stage so they've likely been built in an important choke, so the defending player is going to be investing in shielding and TMD to defend those T2 PDs and hold that position as well as more pgens back home to power the shields. Those 10 MMLs force the defending player to invest far more mass, power, and build capacity into the firebase than they cost the attacking player to build, and that investment is in static emplacements that aren't able to leave and strike somewhere else.

I also don't understand how it's possible to accidentally walk your MMLs into T2 PD range. Just double-click to select all your MMLs and queue up attack actions on the targets, and the MMLs will bombard them from maximum range.
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Re: MMLs kinda suck

Postby Blodir » 29 Jan 2020, 11:53

I kinda agree that they suck, but your reasoning is bad. MML are extremely good at killing t2 pd. I just always make 2 MMLs whenever i see PD or t2 acu... it's a super easy counter.

The reason I think they kinda suck though is that they are completely useless at anything that isnt destroying a building or upgrading acu. In practice the only reason you ever build them is to kill t2 pd. I don't think any unit should be defined in terms of another.
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Re: MMLs kinda suck

Postby ZLO_RD » 29 Jan 2020, 13:00

Blodir wrote:I kinda agree that they suck, but your reasoning is bad. MML are extremely good at killing t2 pd. I just always make 2 MMLs whenever i see PD or t2 acu... it's a super easy counter.

The reason I think they kinda suck though is that they are completely useless at anything that isnt destroying a building or upgrading acu. In practice the only reason you ever build them is to kill t2 pd. I don't think any unit should be defined in terms of another.

Kinda agree... maybe give them some fun buffs so that even if there are no t2 pds unit will have at least some use
uef HP + gun or even secondary t1 arty or some more splash...
aeon.. maybe give them their own radar for like a t2 scout-unit
not sure what "side buff" would fit sera... maybe a deploy mode with increased fire rate, or just give them radar cause selens suck ass and you are forced to do radar creep...

Edit: introducing some new weird shit without any reason sounds like bad idea... maybe some one can look at the costs again and can make them 10% cheaper for example and that would be fine...
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Re: MMLs kinda suck

Postby TheKoopa » 29 Jan 2020, 15:13

Excuse me sui is 1900 and died to mml
Feather: I am usually pretty good in judging people's abilities, intelligence and motives

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Re: MMLs kinda suck

Postby ZLO_RD » 29 Jan 2020, 15:52

TheKoopa wrote:Excuse me sui is 1900 and died to mml

Don't trust global rating
and BlinChik is below 1600 rating for example
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Re: MMLs kinda suck

Postby MrTBSC » 29 Jan 2020, 18:04

Blodir wrote:I kinda agree that they suck, but your reasoning is bad. MML are extremely good at killing t2 pd. I just always make 2 MMLs whenever i see PD or t2 acu... it's a super easy counter.

The reason I think they kinda suck though is that they are completely useless at anything that isnt destroying a building or upgrading acu. In practice the only reason you ever build them is to kill t2 pd. I don't think any unit should be defined in terms of another.



i think since for most factions with them being kinda a intermediate between t1 MA and t3 MA maybe they should get a bit more AOE, or if they are meant to be purely a anti base unit maybe add a bit of extradamage vs shields ..

there needs to be a reason other than just antifirebase/antiPD to build mmls, there also needs to be a reason why to build tmd than just shields ... i would even suggest to maybe make tmd also target t3 MA artilleryshots ...

another thing i have to question is bringing mmls along with support units such as shieldgens or the deciever ...

the uef mml has the most HP and can be covered by a 3k HP shield
the Aeon mml is as low in HP as the cybran mml but unlike the cybran mml Aeon can cover behind a 3.5k hpshield
phim only have access to a msg at t3 which means on t2 they have to rely on armor to not be immidiatly be sniped ..
cybran are in the same situation more or less cause even if their mml is under stealth and as such may get more likely shots of before retaliation they still can be easily sniped by small flanking assaultgroups ..

so imo both cybran and phim should rather have high hp mmls were uef and aeon should be lower health cause of access to t2 shieldgens ..
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Re: MMLs kinda suck

Postby techmind_ » 31 Jan 2020, 14:10

MrTBSC wrote:
Blodir wrote:I kinda agree that they suck, but your reasoning is bad. MML are extremely good at killing t2 pd. I just always make 2 MMLs whenever i see PD or t2 acu... it's a super easy counter.


Mini-t2 absolver for mmls actually is a pretty good idea, every t2 mml except vipers can only counter pd2 turret, with x2-x3 dmg vs shield they will be mostly 'firebase crackers', but also could counter t2/t3 mobile shields.

And uef t3 mml needs some sort of buff ('rocket retargeting' (they prone to over-kill and destroying wrecks, which is bad) or ' launch 1 rocket only + x3 rate of fire' or 'big aoe').
They are hilariously bad against moving targets (they can probably only hit approaching fatboy reliably, which will take some time to turn around) and half of them will die to retaliation of fatboy anyway. Their description is "overhelm tmd's", but they fire 3 rockets for 400 mass and t2 mml fires 2 for 200, so even as tmd counter they are worse than t2 unit.
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