Patch 3704 Release Thread

[UnorthodoxBox]

And yet it's being picked the least.

People not playing faction =/= faction being bad

Why don't you just try it yourself against decent players?

You mean against the 2000+ rated players I play against all the time, since I am 2000 rated?

Maybe you should just address the points i made WHY I think they are too weak now instead of making senseless statements

You said aeon destroyers are at least as strong as seraphim, i brought up the fact that you can dodge most of their dps
You said UEF has better t2 mix, I told you that its not as strong as you think, the UEF destroyers arent exceptional in any way, and you need make a whole other boat to deal with submerged seraphim destroyers.
You said destroyers submerging makes them lose half their damage output, I said the destroyers when submerged now take 0 damage from frigates and like 10 dps from UEF destroyers.
You said seraphim lacks in naval power due to ridiculous nerf on t3 subs, I said the t3 subs getting nerfed does not affect really anything since your main fighting force is frigates, destroyers, and battleships at t3.
Buddy you should really read what I write, you can see I address everything you say.

actually yes it does. The shield boats protects them from air attacks and gives them additional hp.

Yes and thats all they do, they give more health. You know what they cannot do? Shoot. If you are fighting UEF with seraphim, and the make a shield boat, guess what you can do? You can ~~submerge~~ your destroyers, go under the shield, and kill the shield boat. They can't do a goddamn thing about it except retreat, or start making coopers.
Do not bring "mUh ToRp bOmbErs" into this, because if you do not have the air to protect from torp bombers, then it does not matter what faction you are, you will lose to torp bombers anyway.

Depends on against which factions destroyers. VS Aeon? Hell no

Funny, aeon is the EASIEST faction to dodge, you can reliably make them miss 50%+ of their shots just by changing direction every second, and that is not even with more advanced micro tactics.

[Little Miss Murder]

Haha!

So, I'm an exclusively Cybran player, for the simple reason that I love navy and I love the fact that I have some mechanism available to me to hide my ships. It helps restore my suspension of disbelief because it subtly makes it more realistic. That increases my enjoyment all on it's ace. The fact that I rely on my own easily accessible uber intel to make tactical decisions like crossing the T is neither here nor there, as hypocritically contradictory as it might seem. That is, perhaps precisely because it is, as you say, a video game.

Perhaps I don't care enough about winning. It can be disappointing to lose, nevertheless, just as a nice win or pulling off a sneaky drop is so satisfying.

It's like having sex. I guess I don't understand that race to the finish line when the whole game is made up of little dramas.

As long as you're enjoying yourself out there, that's good. Most people come here to play casually, and they can live without being concerned about the meta and balance of the game; imo as long as your perspective of the game's design and immersion isn't cradling to making the balance/meta your own, but rather grounded on your enjoyment of the game, then that's perfect.

I don't enjoy the competitive scene anymore (being a long time player, I just burnt myself out), but I can still enjoy and have fun with the game, which is what matters anyway.

I think, if I had to condense it into something that makes sense to me, is that if you are really that good that counting hitbox pixels and fussing over dps and so on really matters, then it is an unspeakable curse to be a pro.

[UnorthodoxBox]

counting hitbox pixels and fussing over dps and so on

The issue is you seem to be trying to make this whole thing extremely black and white. It is not "intense tick counting and dps measurement" vs some grand strategy. It is taking a look at how the meta for naval micro is affected by certain units being worse than others vs your idea of what micro should be. The meta is the meta for a reason; it is what has been found to be the best and most efficient way to play. In this meta, dps per mass and hp per mass do affect the gameplay. You cannot deny that. You can say in your idea of naval micro it doesnt matter, but your idea is not the meta.

[Little Miss Murder]

counting hitbox pixels and fussing over dps and so on

The issue is you seem to be trying to make this whole thing extremely black and white. It is not "intense tick counting and dps measurement" vs some grand strategy. It is taking a look at how the meta for naval micro is affected by certain units being worse than others vs your idea of what micro should be. The meta is the meta for a reason; it is what has been found to be the best and most efficient way to play. In this meta, dps per mass and hp per mass do affect the gameplay. You cannot deny that. You can say in your idea of naval micro it doesnt matter, but your idea is not the meta.

Of course it isn't. Which is why I don't care about dps.

That doesn't stop me from flapping my gums. Deal with it

[Thomy100]

In the meantime Keyser was so nice to play a Sandbox with me to show that in small numbers the sera Destroyers indeed still are very strong if microd correctly. Thanks a lot Keyser, looks like you were right with that.

Nevertheless in larger engagement this "micro" adventage loses its weight. So Sera is strong early T2 at sea still

You said seraphim lacks in naval power due to ridiculous nerf on t3 subs, I said the t3 subs getting nerfed does not affect really anything since your main fighting force is frigates, destroyers, and battleships at t3.

I understand your arguments to the other points although not necessarily agree to them but this one you have to explain to me:
If having t3 subs does not really have an effect anymore at T3 navy and you basically just build frigats, destroyers and battleships as you say, why then leave them in the game at all? What is the purpose then of the T3 Sub?

T3 subhunters used to be a tool to gain sea supperiority and counter stuff like Tempest or Harms creep. Since it has been nerfed and made ridiculously expensive Sera doesn't have any cost efficient solution to these strategies. To counter a tempest or a Mega or Harms creep you need to have a cloud of subhunters, that's almost not possible to get at this cost. Also it's not like they are not getting contested. Like I said earlier, T2 Subs cost much less and can overwhelm the t3 subs if you play a bit smart and careful. Also I dont know what you did to the subhunters AA but they are totally hard countred by t2 torps. I really feel like it got nerfed too hard especially considering the high cost it has.

guess what you can do? You can ~~submerge~~ your destroyers, go under the shield, and kill the shield boat. They can't do a goddamn thing about it except retreat, or start making coopers.

Aaaah the good old "you can ~~submerge~~ your destroyers" trick. I think even the AI at easy doesn't stand staticly there in the water while the submerged, huge and highly visible submerged T2 Sera destroyers casually swim through their shields and start shooting at them.

[FtXCommando]

Or you could make battleships and groundfire harms and use frigates + bs to beat a tempest

I’m also quite sure t3 subs would beat a tempest mass for mass pretty easily

[keyser]

T3 subs have mostly a niche role as of now.
I would say they are here to poke the opponent navy forcing it to leave the position or engage and break its formation.
Still think it would be better that they can't get groundfire though.
I guess it can also serve in surprise army composition change, by stacking a few of them before using them altogether.

Also i can see them just being used in a unit mix in general, to deal free damage (being out of range of torpedoes). Them not being super noticeable among the sheer quantity of ships being used.

[UnorthodoxBox]

T3 subhunters used to be a tool to gain sea supperiority and counter stuff like Tempest or Harms creep.

Battleships are better at doing both of those. They can hit the harms with impunity, and the tempest can so easily be dodged, it's laughable. Other factions do not have t3 subs and they have 0 issues with those things.
You are thinking that t3 subs are supposed to be high-dps brawlers, but they are actually snipers, and should not be at the front lines.

[Azraeel]

My Balance Opinions

List Of My Opinions :3

1) Cybran are so strong on every front. My Main is Seraphim and i'll admit, i end up going cybran for land air and navy half the time. They are so good at all three and have almost no weakness. The T4 is solid as f***, and with the new Scathis, WHICH IS NOT OP -_-. The Cybran in my opinion is just the best faction, Period. Cybran is just so fucking strong. Other Factions have weakness like, Aeon and land. Cybran seem to have no weakness in my Experience. But this is coming from a 700.

I'd like to point out during test with my AI (Swarm), Even my AI Loves Cybran the most. Even the AI knows Cybran is Big Brain Strong.

2) Realism??? Why is Anyone talking about realism in competitive games. I understand Realism is nice and all, but we shouldnt balance around Realism. Thats stupid as shit. We are talking about a competitive game not A War Simulator. I think the balance team is doing great, ok. We dont need to be shitting on the balance team for no reason. We should be giving Helpful Criticism and not 100% Bullshit.

3) I feel like as a Seraphim main, I have a duty to put my opinion on the T3 Sub at there. Its so fucking useless and my opinion. Its too expensive and i almost never use it. I'd rather just make Battleships and torp bombers and be done with it. The T3 Sub use to be so good especially in the original game. Yea it was OP but now its been Nerfed so much its garbage. I think we should get a buff to T3 Subs. You can cook me up all day long. My Opinion is my Opinion and it isnt wrong because its my Opinion.

4) Bring Back Harbingers??? The Speed use to be the thing that made Harbingers so good. They could raid and really f*** up shit for the enemy players. They were very hard too catch, Quick Moving, High ROF and Dps. They are one of the worst T3 Main Combat Units on the field (Not Including Othuum). Whoever said the Ahwassa was shit is just dead wrong, I'm sorry lol. Some of the stuff i've seen people post of this thread makes my brain hurt, and Im a 700. You 1k's seem dumb as shit and seem to not understand the game at all. The 2000s actually know what they are talking about, but you guys seem to not know that they have more experience and knowledge of the game and you should respect that and not act like they dont know shit. They really do know more, They've played the game longer and more competitively and they are better at the game....

5) I wish that we could make Commanders stronger. But 30minutes and 40 minutes, your com is basically useless. Cybran and Cloak Laser or Tele Laser but still I'm talking about frontline. Commander is useless and you end up putting in some water somewhere still game is over. Commanders should be stronger honestly. But i know thats asking for some crazy changes and yea i understand probably wont happen

Faction Diversity Is Gone.

Its gone like i feel like every faction in a way are the same and theres no real point of chosing a faction for a specific thing. I believe faction should be wayyyy more Diverse honestly. In Terms of Stats, Units, Abilites, and etc. I mean yea Cybran has Stealth, UEF is Tanky, and Aeon is fast and raidy type faction. But Overrall Faction Diversity is gone in my opinion. This is the main topic i wanted to start on

^Share your opinion specifically on this one. I really wanna see what people think about this one cause i feel as if it is important we have diversity especially if 4 factions that are extremely different in though, reasons, and just lore.

[Hildegard]

My Balance Opinions
3) I feel like as a Seraphim main, I have a duty to put my opinion on the T3 Sub at there. Its so fucking useless and my opinion. Its too expensive and i almost never use it. I'd rather just make Battleships and torp bombers and be done with it. The T3 Sub use to be so good especially in the original game. Yea it was OP but now its been Nerfed so much its garbage. I think we should get a buff to T3 Subs. You can cook me up all day long. My Opinion is my Opinion and it isnt wrong because its my Opinion.
[/size]

The unit can't be balanced to perform well at a low rated players level of finesse, or naval balance will be deleted at higher levels.

On paper the statistics of Yathsou might seem nothing spectacular. In fact, 3k mass for a meager 4k HP pool is a fairly terrible ratio, while even T2 destroyers have similar or more combined DPS in all their naval arms.

However, you, and some others in this thread, are consistently overlooking the range on the torpedoes: 65. This means that apart from torpedo bombers (which this unit can defend itself against reasonably well) there are exactly 4 units in the game that can reach this unit when it is firing from its own maximum range: Atlantis, Tempest, Plan-B, and HARMS.

At least 2 of those are almost never built, not at least for the purpose of naval combat. While the Tempest and HARMS do occur on some frequency, they are virtually the only units in the entire game (when we exclude air and groundfire) that can damage Yathsou at all.

Aeon Exodus with its great torpedo and depth charge DPS? Yathsou is invulnerable.
Salems? Invulnerable.
Coopers? Invulnerable.
Barracudas? Vespers? Invulnerable.

While T2 submarines and coopers have slightly higher speed (meaning they will eventually get within range), it's not a very realistic situation to suppose 30 vespers chasing 5 Yathsous on a beeline through the entire ocean in actual fighting scenarios. Supplemented with even one or two T3 hover shields the t2 subs will be at a significant disadvantage anyway.

If you keep this unit constantly on the move, always edging on the range, and supplementing the submarine group with T3 hover shields from Seraphim land tree, you have a pack of units that can, even in a stack of 5, apply over 1k DPS without being targetable by almost any enemy naval unit. Building more than a handful will resort in the group having to be split into separate packs to micro, or turning the groups will cause most to veer beyond range and lose their DPS. Also the more the subs are concentrated, the more likely it is for ground-fire to hit them, even when they are on the move. It's not a unit that should make up 70% of your naval force. Much like you wouldn't make a navy force consisting 70% of carriers, or 70% of nuke subs or cruisers. You need to treat it as a specialized unit, not a submerged ship of the line.

Noobs make t3 subs and drive them under Exodus/Salem/Cooper to which they lose mass-to-mass, or leave them idle and a single ground fire deletes the entire group. In the hands of a proficient player they are, at best, almost unkillable.

The only real, glaring weakness of the Seraphim navy is its inability to deal with lots of t2 submarines at earlier game stages without resorting to air, since their destroyer has a very meager torpedo defense, and will be swarmed easier than other destroyers (UEF destroyer would be as weak, but it can always resort to the assistance of coopers).