Patch 3704 Release Thread

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Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

Postby Thomy100 » 06 Sep 2019, 23:48

I have no problem with respect but I have a problem with people who talk down to others. Instead of contributing anything useful just saying "you are too low to understand whereas I am a PROOO" is not making a valid argument.

Well, I dont see it. Seraphim is picked least and feels much weaker than it used to to me.

But that's okay, I started playing Cybran a bit and it looks like in big team games there is almost no way to lose with that faction. Cheapest t4 for rushes, RAS SACU's for strong eco and an imba game ender. Now I get why Cybran is so popular :D

ah and yes, the guy who brought faction Diversity up is right, I now experienced it first hand :lol:
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Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

Postby Azraeel » 06 Sep 2019, 23:59

Thomy100 wrote:I have no problem with respect but I have a problem with people who talk down to others. Instead of contributing anything useful just saying "you are too low to understand whereas I am a PROOO" is not making a valid argument.

Well, I dont see it. Seraphim is picked least and feels much weaker than it used to to me.

But that's okay, I started playing Cybran a bit and it looks like in big team games there is almost no way to lose with that faction. Cheapest t4 for rushes, RAS SACU's for strong eco and an imba game ender. Now I get why Cybran is so popular :D

ah and yes, the guy who brought faction Diversity up is right, I now experienced it first hand :lol:


I mean pros only bring it up when you start talking like you know more then them :)
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Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

Postby FtXCommando » 07 Sep 2019, 00:26

Cybran in teamgames:
ML -> garbage
ACU -> garbage (one notable exception scenario)
T2 -> garbage
Mega -> slapped by fatboy

enjoy
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Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

Postby Endranii » 07 Sep 2019, 01:30

Cybran - Stealthy advanced cunts that stab you from behind due to their OP advanced AI implants
UEF - The glorious US FUCKING A of Supcom, the big bois with big tanks and army
Aeon - Religious zealots with lots'a women in ranks, funky floating tech.

Seraphim - Screeching Aliens.Not that much units.

Now guess who will be picked the most based on the lore and feeling of faction without giving a f*** about meta.

Here I answered why sera is not the most popular faction in the game.

Ps:Remove the ***** *** *** ****** ***** filter.
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Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

Postby biass » 07 Sep 2019, 03:16

Instead of contributing anything useful


So are you going to contribute anything useful in the form of even the slightest morsel of research, or are you going to continue to self destruct and be mocked by the entirety of your peers?

It's always cute to try and explain to people 1000 - 2000 pointy wointys higher than you how to play but if you really thought you would get anywhere with that you're either full of misbegotten confidence or outright delusional.

Congratulations on winning a game on your new faction because the change of environment broke you out of your litany of bad habits. You blaming some sort of blind conspiracy without any actual weight behind it though just completes the balance forum cycle.

I'm getting too old, I hope the next chosen undead arrives with a replay in his OP.
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Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

Postby Thomy100 » 07 Sep 2019, 09:48

Endranii wrote:Cybran - Stealthy advanced cunts that stab you from behind due to their OP advanced AI implants
UEF - The glorious US FUCKING A of Supcom, the big bois with big tanks and army
Aeon - Religious zealots with lots'a women in ranks, funky floating tech.

Seraphim - Screeching Aliens.Not that much units.

Now guess who will be picked the most based on the lore and feeling of faction without giving a f*** about meta.

Here I answered why sera is not the most popular faction in the game.

Ps:Remove the ***** *** *** ****** ***** filter.


Wait, I fix it for you:

Seraphim - Mysterious Aliens from a different Dimension coming trough the Rift to Invade Earth. They are the original Teachers of "The Way" which the Aeon adopted and want to make sure their disciples suceed in the eternal war! Their units differ greatly from the other factions due to their sleek design and efficiency.

Also they have the coolest Banner :D


biass wrote:So are you going to contribute anything useful in the form of even the slightest morsel of research, or are you going to continue to self destruct and be mocked by the entirety of your peers?

It's always cute to try and explain to people 1000 - 2000 pointy wointys higher than you how to play but if you really thought you would get anywhere with that you're either full of misbegotten confidence or outright delusional.

Congratulations on winning a game on your new faction because the change of environment broke you out of your litany of bad habits. You blaming some sort of blind conspiracy without any actual weight behind it though just completes the balance forum cycle.

I'm getting too old, I hope the next chosen undead arrives with a replay in his OP.


Your contributions so far to this discussion:

biass wrote:bruh...


biass wrote:rocketrooster...


biass wrote:Fellas if you think Jagged or anyone in the balance team is going to listen to at best ancedotal / at worst comical opinions from average level players with no replays to support them after the YEARS of lich/hawkei/mayasaka/rooster balance cancer, you would indeed be delusional.

If you claim that UEF T2 navy is so much as an autowin againt seraphim T2 (when I thought it was almost the opposite..), you're going to need to bring proof to the table.

If you unironically looked up world war one military strategems to attempt to learn how to play I will be sure to send you a "get well soon" card.


Yeah, your contributions were FULL of researched and well thought out arguments.

I believe I made some fairly good points during the course of this discussion and also provided research and numbers about why I believe this balance patch went too far with buffing the Scathis and why Seraphims should get more love. The buffs were very minor but the nerfs were huge to this faction, most noticably by the t3 sub. And I really believe that's one of the reasons why Sera is picked waaaay less than other factions although I know it was never the "crowd's favourite".

A discussion always includes some heated arguments, that's the way it should be between people who are passionate about their standpoint and want to make a difference. I see no problem in that and I hope it's not a futile endevour. Otherwise why have a thread about discussing the balance patch at all?
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Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

Postby FtXCommando » 07 Sep 2019, 11:00

Thomy100 wrote:
I believe I made some fairly good points during the course of this discussion and also provided research and numbers about why I believe this balance patch went too far with buffing the Scathis and why Seraphims should get more love. The buffs were very minor but the nerfs were huge to this faction, most noticably by the t3 sub. And I really believe that's one of the reasons why Sera is picked waaaay less than other factions although I know it was never the "crowd's favourite".

A discussion always includes some heated arguments, that's the way it should be between people who are passionate about their standpoint and want to make a difference. I see no problem in that and I hope it's not a futile endevour. Otherwise why have a thread about discussing the balance patch at all?


Isn’t your research and numbers on this basically “no one plays phim and a lot of people play cybran” though? Which again is kinda a bogus point just based on the reality teamgames are inherently ACU dominated which immediately puts phim as 2nd best teamgame faction. This was true when they had an even wider gap between them and other factions in t2 air and t3 land. Have you looked at the balance change that nerfed the t3 subs and given some suggested values to “bring them back” without turning them into the monsters they were in the past?

Buffs were minor? Have you seen how much more viable phim t3 land is, especially in teamgames, compared to how it used to be just a patch prior? You know one of the dudes that got to the finals in the end of the year tournament last year basically purely plays phim in 1v1, right? And that’s where phim is supposed to BE weaker and happened on a patch where they WERE weaker. How does that fit into the facts and logic? (Or Nano ACU, or double gun, or gunship, or making chicken able to stomp large t3 armies due to the fact it can now properly kite while using most of its dps, ....)
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Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

Postby biass » 07 Sep 2019, 13:19

Thomy100 wrote:Yeah, your contributions were FULL of researched and well thought out arguments.


You don't need to try and put this back on me mate, the onus is on you to provide reasons as to why there needs to be a change. I am otherwise contented with the patch, and every other person in the thread is already pointing out, for a lack of a friendly term: the things you get wrong because you're bad at the game.

Thomy100 wrote:I believe I made some fairly good points during the course of this discussion and also provided research and numbers about why I believe this balance patch went too far with buffing the Scathis and why Seraphims should get more love.


You didn't.

Point 1: "Seraphim pick rate is too low (in the 1200 bracket specifically)"

The closest thing to a statistic you brought up is that you "thought it could be statistically proven", which is ancedotal. You then assert it as the truth on page 9.

You can find a "games played by faction and rating" statistic on page nine of the FAF stats thread, which is a 5 second search away.
http://forums.faforever.com/viewtopic.p ... 80#p167079

Not only is seraphim not underplayed, it's even played more than cybran (which you deem is overplayed) in your rating bracket.
I'm aware the data is now old, if you would like to provide actual evidence to prove that this is no longer relevant, and why that correlates to a specific balance change, go ahead.

Point 2: The Scathis is overpowered (compared to the Yolona OSS)

You mention on page three that a Scathis is overpowered because it destroys "a base with 22 Seraphim T3 shields in 2 volleys."

The cost of the new Scathis (source: patchnotes) is 220000 mass.
The cost of 22 Athanuhthe (source: spookydb & rackoverdb) is 3600 x 22 = 79200 mass.

You state that because a scathis destroys 36% percent of it's mass investment in shields (with no comparisons to other game enders or replays to prove that this causes a problem) it is overpowered.

You state on page 6 that "Yes, the Yolona cost's less mass but these 60% more Energy it cost's than a Marvor is fuckin insane."

I think you intentionally fail to stress the mass difference.

The mass cost of the Scathis is again, 220000
The mass cost of the Yolona OSS is (source: rackoverdb) 187700

That's a difference of 32300 mass, which allows for an extra 9 Athanuhthe or 10 T3 Pgens to match the investment.

You state later that "Yolona is double the price of Marvor"
The Yolona costs 37100 less mass than the "marvor" which allows for 10 and a third T3 Shields or a little under 11 T3 pgens.

If you would like to state as to why you cannot equalise the additional energy costs with this mass difference, explain why and with a replay.

You state that you don't need to shield a Scathis if you build it under the water.
That's false, you can attack a scathis in deep water with the entire arsenal of seraphim torpedo weapons, which a scathis cannot be defended against.
For shallow waters, the Scathis will still likely take damage from any form of AOE weapon including all game enders, which also likely cannot be defended against.
In either case, being on the enemy side of the map or "bay" is irrelevant, investment in defences is the same irrespective of map location.

You assert these claims as true again on page 9, despite not having provided any evidence of their imbalance. You only stated their statistics (which the balance team already know, clearly) and ancedotal evidence, which doesn't hold any weight as a 1000 rated player.

You also, to my amusement, state that the Hoplite is not underpowered because it lacks shields, because it has Counter inteligence boats and Salems.
The Hoplite is a land unit and cannot benefit from the use of a Counter Inteligence boat or a Salem in most cases. It does of course have the Deceiver.

In the middle of your self destruction on page 11, you mention that the Yathsou cannot be a sniper because it doesnt fire a single, powerful torpedo.
You then insult UnorthodoxBox and tell him to look up the definition of sniping on google.

That definition is: "the action of shooting at someone from a hiding place, especially accurately and at long range."
The defintion makes no mention of the power of the weapon or the total munitions fired per salvo.

So if you would like to actually put in some time to provide reasons as to why your ancedotal claims are the truth, and make an attempt to repair your reputation with the balance team/wider high level community that are now making fun of you behind your back, feel free to go ahead and do that. Otherwise, i would rather you refrained.
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Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

Postby Thomy100 » 07 Sep 2019, 18:45

I wrote a reply for like half an hour and then wanted to preview the post and it got into the login page and I lost all that I had written. This mechanic is really annoying....

So since I dont feel like writing everything again here the short version


biass wrote:
Thomy100 wrote:You don't need to try and put this back on me mate, the onus is on you to provide reasons as to why there needs to be a change. I am otherwise contented with the patch, and every other person in the thread is already pointing out, for a lack of a friendly term: the things you get wrong because you're bad at the game.


There is a saying in German: "Wer austeilt muss auch einstecken können". I think it resembles in english to: "Don't dish out if you can't take it".

If you want to be judgemental and accusing me of not contributing anything useful don't complain if I point out your embarassingly useless contributions so far.

Statistics:
The FAF forever webpage or client doesnt provide any statistics about faction usage etc. as far as I can see. My argument comes from observation. You can observe it too if you play some teamgames. I am often the only Sera in a 12 player roster. rearly saw more than 3 in one game.

Scathis / Yolona:
Yes, Yolona costs less mass. Cybran on the other hand has RAS SACU's and gets therefore faster a stronger eco. Each of them provide 11 mass. Sera doesnt have that. both can build mass converters, cybran still keeps the advantage in mass income. Usually you dont start a game ender before not havving about 10 SACU's. At this point the Mass difference between the yolona and scathis is more than equalized.

Building under water: Scathis is the only game ender you can build under water, far better protected (only torpedos can attack it in deep water) and can then roll out once it's finished. your argument about the Sera Torpedo force to cancel the scathis is actually ironic since Sera's subhunter is shit now and way to expensive to mass it to go and kill a scathis. Also we are talking here about a team game scenario, not a 1v1. in 1v1's and smaller team games there is barely any game ender. in large team games they are build regularly. The whole team is protecting and helping the scathis to get built. Your scenario of "just blow it out of the water with torp bombers" is unrealistic at best.
Yes, ofc you need shields for the scathis as well but after it's finished which is 10-15min after you started building it. the other game enders you have to protect, to some degree at least, from the start. It also has a smaller hitbox, more HP than other Game Enders and is mobile. It has a clear advantage now to the other game enders. imo it was buffed too much.

biass wrote:In the middle of your self destruction on page 11, you mention that the Yathsou cannot be a sniper because it doesnt fire a single, powerful torpedo.
You then insult UnorthodoxBox and tell him to look up the definition of sniping on google.

That definition is: "the action of shooting at someone from a hiding place, especially accurately and at long range."
The defintion makes no mention of the power of the weapon or the total munitions fired per salvo.


This is so silly I didn't want to even get into that but maybe in short: Putting a condecending A** at his place is hardly self destructing. I am alive and well, dont worry. As for the sniper: I don't believe the t3 subhunter was ever meant to be a "sniper" unit. Your precious balance comitee of pros did this and claim it to be a "sniperunit" now. I believe it was meant to be a sea superiority unit which underlined the Seraphims strenght at sea. Was it too strong before? probably. Is it now better as overexpensive "sniper" sub that can't snipe? Yes, for all the other factions but Sera. I believe the original developers of this game meant it to be similar to the Ilshavoh at t2 stage on land but just for water.


biass wrote:So if you would like to actually put in some time to provide reasons as to why your ancedotal claims are the truth, and make an attempt to repair your reputation with the balance team/wider high level community that are now making fun of you behind your back, feel free to go ahead and do that. Otherwise, i would rather you refrained.



Repair my reputation? You think I have anything to prove to you or you royal balance team? I couldnt care less. But at least I am one of the vast majority of mediocre players who play team games and keep this game alive who actually cares abouot this game being or staying good. And balance and faction diversity are important factors to that. Appearently you think for one to have a valid opinion here he has to be a 2000 Elo player. Well I am not but that doesnt mean I am stupid or can't play RTS games. I used to be, what you would call in the "competitive" scene of Warcraft 3 for years and played in internation league matches. I enjoy this game now due to its much slower pace and because it's more macro heavy. Nevertheless I believe I have an eye for balance issues due to my experience. You and your buddies of the balance comittee can keep dismissing other people's opinions and circle jerking eachother, I don't care. I have no time or interest in writing a bachelor thesis about the balance issues of this patch so go look up the numbers yourself. I am just pointing out my observations. I am done with this thread if it's just for the self serving purpose of people who only want to confirm their own premade opinions and won't leave any room for others.
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Re: Patch 3704 Release Thread

Postby Thomy100 » 07 Sep 2019, 18:50

FtXCommando wrote: You know one of the dudes that got to the finals in the end of the year tournament last year basically purely plays phim in 1v1, right? And that’s where phim is supposed to BE weaker and happened on a patch where they WERE weaker. How does that fit into the facts and logic? (Or Nano ACU, or double gun, or gunship, or making chicken able to stomp large t3 armies due to the fact it can now properly kite while using most of its dps, ....)


Do you know where I can watch these replays? is it in the vault or somewhere? Would really love to watch tem :)

About the t3 sub: Yes, I agree, it's shouldn't become a "Monster" again as it used to be... I will think about it and maybe test out some stuff in sandbox mode to suggest a moderate buff.
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