Patch 3703 Beta

[AFGHANPSYCHO]

Are you surprised? Seraphim and Aeon have been unnecessarily getting stealth nerfed patch after patch. Seraphim naval is trash, their land is abysmal , and they have nothing special going for them in air. Only thing that is keeping them worth it is their shields, which are now getting nerfed as well.

[Blodir]

The change i feel most strongly about is the massive nerf to torp bombers. I feel like this change will make navy play much more boring.

First of all it reduces number of options available to each player. Yes, torps were strong, but they didn't exactly render navy useless did they? You'd still have to contest navy and cruisers in large enough number could still defend a naval force from torps cost effectively. Only cruiser that had a problem was Cyb imo, you could just change that. I think gameplay where u have some cruisers and inties floating over them for defense is much more interesting than only spamming destros and frigates... btw another note about cruisers (except aeon): they are supposed to be weaker than (or at least equal to) torps because they serve a dual purpose in your army while torps only serve one purpose; cyb cruiser can help out with navy while uef and sera are insanely strong bombardment weapons (might even be worth getting if they didnt have any anti air at all).

Torps were also the last land/air unit that could contest navy or even allow you to regain navy in some rare cases. Imagine if a couple of frigs on ur shore denied navy forever and immediately lost you the game... so boring. In teamgames (mostly senton) this is doubly important... torps are the main way of helping your struggling teammate... if that is removed then what remains? Essentially just nukes (that are nerfed too)? I think hover nerf years ago was also bad. That was a nice way for mid player to help out with some early naval rushes which just isnt fast enough with moving/adding BP to navy. Hover also added much needed diversity to naval game instead of just bs frig war...

While we are on the topic of senton consider this: torps initiate air fights. If the air players had to make 100 torps to have any effect on navy then neither player would make any torps and instead just sit in their base until they have 500 asf.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness.

If you still feel like torp nerf is fine then please do tell what kind of game would you like to unfold as a result of this change? What interesting scenario would be enabled by torp nerf?

[keyser]

Played a beta 1v1 where i went only torp for a long period, and spammed several hundred of them. It went out pretty well. Seemed balance. check my last roanoke.

[Blodir]

Played a beta 1v1 where i went only torp for a long period, and spammed several hundred of them. It went out pretty well. Seemed balance. check my last roanoke.

desyncs at the point where you are 7k points ahead in 10minutes...

[keyser]

damn torp play is still to op then :/

[Turinturambar]

imo navy is pretty useless atm if you dont have air. one cruiser=2k mass~8 torp bombers with current price, so you can easily oneshot cruisers mass for mass. imo 3 (4) main reasons why navy can work out are
a) spaming enough torps needs a lot of bp which ppl often dont have
b) spaming torps=less inties so again a bp issue
c) player who has navy should get the reclaim (!)
( d) enough cyb/sera frigs have good aa on their own)

imo on many 20x20 navy maps current gameplay is just hardspam air in early untill you have enough eco o afford air+heavy t2 navy spam. if you go t2 navy before youre likely to lose which is pretty boring imo (just think of any of your osiris game and how you went for 100+ inties allways before going t2 navy and call current meta not insanely linear)

[Blodir]

damn torp play is still to op then :/

you didn't have any torps, actually i think it desynced when first torp came out but not sure i didnt watch too carefully. Also it's clear from ur attitude that u dont give a shit about what i think

[Apofenas]

About Scathis:
The unit has 6 barrels so please make it shoot 18 shots instead of 20. (for my sanity)

Analogy. If for some reason needed to buff or nerf Summit cannons, what would you do?
a) Each cannon gets damage (rof, radius ect) increace/decrease
b) Each cannon makes extra shot from one of the barrels making it 4 shots total per 3 barrels. Or in case of nerf instead makes 2 shots per salvo making one barrel completely inactive.

This is simple aestetic.

torpedo changes :
goal is not to make them strong, just more relevant in specific situation. Eg you won't fight back a navy or spam amphibious unit to get back into the navy game. It's more situational occasion : eg forcing an undefended ACU out of the water, keeping an army of amphibious safe from free dps of few subs

How many Wagners with 7.5 DPS do you need to actually force "undefended ACU" out the water? Let's just assume single t1 sub with 37.5 DPS is enough to scare T1 ACU. So you need around whole 5 Wagners with total price of 1500 mass to do that. That is at least t2 air HQ + 2 torp bombers or 4 t1 subs with doing same thing with 150 DPS.

How many Wagners do you need for ACU with vet and t2? Nano? T3 with rapid reclaim?

Yes it should be more relevant for mentioned specific situations. 7.5 isn't relevant, it is meme trash.

Probably because it has an aoe radius of 3 which makes it insanely good against t1 units and capped mexes. The other t2 gunships don't even have aoe damage at all.

So what? Nothing really changed with stats from before the patch. Renegade just got a targetting improvement that every other gunship had. Yes it has AOE, but also worst DPS and HP. Additional HP and dps or transport ability don't come into price of other gunships.

Aeon advantage was the air on t2... dont have a single t2 land unit with a good range. Great when put mongoose more fast.

Mongoose now soo OP.

Except that Hoplite is still better than Mongoose specificly agaisnt aeon. With this change or without you still get the issue that Aeon and Sera may struggle against microed range bots. Which unit would you use against them? Blaze and Yenzine. May be those 2 could get a buff

Yes aeon frigs are still the worst, but some faction has to be the worst unless you want to make all factions equal.

Even with 250m cost it is still the worse since it still has worse stats and no AA. Is Shard really THAT good unit to make up for that?

[Ecthelon]

Well the response to the majority of these changes has been overwhelmingly negative. I guess we'll see how much the opinions of the players actually matter.

[keyser]

torpedo changes :
goal is not to make them strong, just more relevant in specific situation. Eg you won't fight back a navy or spam amphibious unit to get back into the navy game. It's more situational occasion : eg forcing an undefended ACU out of the water, keeping an army of amphibious safe from free dps of few subs

How many Wagners with 7.5 DPS do you need to actually force "undefended ACU" out the water? Let's just assume single t1 sub with 37.5 DPS is enough to scare T1 ACU. So you need around whole 5 Wagners with total price of 1500 mass to do that. That is at least t2 air HQ + 2 torp bombers or 4 t1 subs with doing same thing with 150 DPS.

How many Wagners do you need for ACU with vet and t2? Nano? T3 with rapid reclaim?

Yes it should be more relevant for mentioned specific situations. 7.5 isn't relevant, it is meme trash.

why do you even compare wagner price to torpedo bomber ? I think you didn't get the spirit of the change here. In no way you can compare amphibious unit torpedo dps to the dps of unit dedicated to attack underwater/naval unit.
Same thing if you expect them to deal with T3 or regen acu.

So what? Nothing really changed with stats from before the patch. Renegade just got a targetting improvement that every other gunship had. Yes it has AOE, but also worst DPS and HP. Additional HP and dps or transport ability don't come into price of other gunships.

their effective dps has been increased due to this change. They can shoot on the fly, they don't need to stabilize as much as before in order to shoot units. Their micro ability have been improved in huge way (ability to dodge and shoot at the same time). They already kill army 3 times faster than other gunships.