T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

[Apofenas]

no matter which map to play. when game enters mid\late state - arty is the most cheapest and efficient way to win. it brakes any challenge on battlefiedl.
build an arty and win, there is no other ending.
this is i started this topic. if arties were more expensive - it would lead to different behavior when eco is fully up.

That means the majority of 1v1 games should end with t3 arty because it is "the most cheapest and efficient way to win".

Now go ahead and find at least one from last year.

[FtXCommando]

no matter which map to play. when game enters mid\late state - arty is the most cheapest and efficient way to win. it brakes any challenge on battlefiedl.
build an arty and win, there is no other ending.
this is i started this topic. if arties were more expensive - it would lead to different behavior when eco is fully up.

Wrong.

See: sentons
See: any 10x10
See: anything that isn’t some variation of gap

Imagine thinking M I D game was decided by t3 arty.

I would personally say that t3 arty is a huge waste of mass when you could build 3 t4s and accomplish a win far more quickly and far more safely on the vast spectrum of FAF maps. If anything it being buffed has a more credible argument than a nerf tbh.

[moses_the_red]

no matter which map to play. when game enters mid\late state - arty is the most cheapest and efficient way to win. it brakes any challenge on battlefiedl.
build an arty and win, there is no other ending.
this is i started this topic. if arties were more expensive - it would lead to different behavior when eco is fully up.

I agree, T3 Arty is obviously OP.

It doesn't tend to show up except on maps with lots of mass, large size, or choke-points because there are cheaper options that are usually good enough, but it is incredibly overpowered whenever its built. I personally think the splash should be removed, as in particular it seems to be too powerful versus T3 land armies, and I assume against Naval as well.

I think that's mostly why the Novax is considered to be crap, its competition is T3 artillery, and T3 artillery is just obscenely OP.

There are two T4s that are just shit on by T3 artillery, the Scathis and the Novax. You can't really balance either because players are comfortable with how OP T3 artillery is but immediately notice how OP something else is if their faction doesn't also have it. If you want the Novax to compete mass for mass with T3 arty, it must be very, very strong. If you want the Scathis to not be completely eclipsed by T3 artillery, it must be an uber game ender on 10x10s costing extreme mass.

If the splash on T3 arty was reduced to 2 or 3, the Scathis would suddenly have a niche, the the novax might suddenly be seen as more useful. Nerfing that one unit might fix two

Honestly I'm really very surprised this is at all controversial.

[biass]

Did I miss the replays being posted in this thread or are the 1ks just theory crafting

[Tagada]

It doesn't tend to show up except on maps with lots of mass, large size, or choke-points because there are cheaper options that are usually good enough.

It doesn't show up except on maps with bad gameplay because on normal maps it's not viable untill late game. It can also appear on team games when 1 team is unorganised so they can't do anything while their oponents are thowing away 72k mass.

but it is incredibly overpowered whenever its built. I personally think the splash should be removed, as in particular it seems to be too powerful versus T3 land armies, and I assume against Naval as well..

I would really like to see arty destroying lots of t3 units because if i remember correctly the arty is not accurate so if you don't afk your units in one place for 3 mins then they won't even get damaged.

Also could you please stop theory crafting and complaining that a specific unit/strategy is op when you use it on map which denies most of other normal strategies?
It's like shouting that the navy is op on navy map compared to hover.
Oh wow land units are useless on map with no expansion and 1 choke point!? Nerf arty and air wtf balance team!!! Everygame is decided by t3 arty or strats!!! We need some more DiVeRsItY.

[Plasma_Wolf]

@moses_the_red and @AIx_Putin. Your next post should include three replays of games, NOT on any gap variation, where artillery are the deciding factor. That is, Where both teams have about the same mass total throughout the game, where one team goes for artillery, the other doesn't. And the artillery team wins.

Best bets are Canis and Hilly.

[moses_the_red]

@moses_the_red and @AIx_Putin. Your next post should include three replays of games, NOT on any gap variation, where artillery are the deciding factor. That is, Where both teams have about the same mass total throughout the game, where one team goes for artillery, the other doesn't. And the artillery team wins.

Best bets are Canis and Hilly.

This place is bizarre.

I spent last week arguing more or less against the idea that the pre-nerf Scathis is OP, and the Scathis is currently 1.5x the damage of a T3 artillery piece, with far less range and a significant boost in cost.

Now this week, I'm arguing with the exact same people, except now they're all telling me that the clearly superior for the mass T3 artillery piece is NOT OP.

Scathis for 85k is OP.

T3 arty, with essentially global range and 2/3rds the damage for almost 20k less mass however is just fine as is.

Last week I learned that the Scathis is an unstoppable uncounterable super-weapon that can be produced in 2.5 minutes by experienced teams.

This week I learned that if you take that same scathis, give it a massive range boost, greatly reduced build times and a 1/3 damage reduction along with a significant price cut its then totally okay and not at all OP, not even so OP that it deserves a splash reduction nerf. I should go watch 15 hours of replays until I find a 3 games on some kind of 1x1 map where a high level player used a disruptor against a T3 army rather than just killing the other guys economy with it.

*scratches head*

I mean, clearly you were joking about canis and hilly, but Jesus Christ. How can anyone say in one breath that the Scathis is OP, but in the next breath tell me that T3 artillery, which is superior in nearly every way, its just fine and dandy.

[moses_the_red]

It doesn't show up except on maps with bad gameplay because on normal maps it's not viable untill late game. It can also appear on team games when 1 team is unorganised so they can't do anything while their oponents are thowing away 90k mass.

Dude, please take the time to look up the mass cost of the unit in question before arguing.

I would really like to see arty destroying lots of t3 units because if i remember correctly the arty is not accurate so if you don't afk your units in one place for 3 mins then they won't even get damaged.

Also could you please stop theory crafting and complaining that a specific unit/strategy is op when you use it on map which denies most of other normal strategies?
It's like shouting that the navy is op on navy map compared to hover.
Oh wow land units are useless on map with no expansion and 1 choke point!? Nerf arty and air wtf balance team!!! Everygame is decided by t3 arty or strats!!! We need some more DiVeRsItY.

I'm going to be honest with you here. I do not recall having ever seen a pro level game where someone specifically targeted a T3 army with a T3 artillery piece. I have no reason to lie to you or anyone else about this. I suspect that while this does happen occasionally, it is extremely rare since there are usually better targets and if you managed to build a T3 artillery you're probably not in a position so desperate that you must target T3 units rather than an SMD or power or Mexes or factory HQs

That said, you're absolutely incorrect about it not being accurate enough. It is definitely accurate enough to hit massed moving formations. If you do not believe me, spin up a test game and see for yourself. You will have no issues whatsoever hitting large collections of bricks, percivals and related T3 support units even while they're moving and not in formation. You can target the units supporting assault bots as well. Hitting an individual T3 unit might take several shots but hitting a large mass of units with it is absolutely within its capabilities. You will see it do tens of thousands of damage with single shots when it connects with a clump of units. It will completely miss sometimes too, but when you factor in its range and real DPS against a moving T3 land army I think you'll find its DPS comparable to T4 assault experimentals.

This absolutely is not map dependent in any way. You can do it on wonder as easily as you can do it on gap. Unless you intentionally spread your T3 formation out so much that it would be useless anyway you're going to do significant damage.

I also question the oft repeated claim that we must balance T3 artillery on maps its never, or almost never built on. "OMG they want to balance T3 artillery on gap" is not a good argument if choke-point maps like Gap, Seton's, Isis etc are the only maps where its ever built. I see little point in attempting to balance it on 5x5 1v1 maps.

[Endranii]

Just ask yourself single question. If my army is under arty fire will I keep moving it in straight line? Especially T3 arty barrage?

[moses_the_red]

Just ask yourself single question. If my army is under arty fire will I keep moving it in straight line? Especially T3 arty barrage?

You planning on taking 4 hours to cross the map?

Seriously man, its not going to matter. A big group of brick is a big target compared to the accurate range of T3 artillery. Please, spin up a test game and try it yourself.

People don't use Arty that way not because it doesn't work, not because it doesn't do good damage, but because there are better targets, like other arty, or T3 power or Mexes or SMDs or Factory HQs or firebases.

Again, spin up a test game and come back and tell me what you think.