T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

[keyser]

imo game should be design toward competitive scene. There is no competitivity scene in teamgame (apart to some extend setons). The only mod that is played at a competitive level is faf ladder. That's why i prefer to keep the balance toward this mod, while trying not f*** up completely the balance in teamgame.
And if we consider to balance the game around teamgame, i prefer to balance it around open 10x10/20x20 2v2/3v3 maps.

We are already suffering an issue having tons of people playing thermo/gap, if we make balance shitier on the "open 10x10/20x20 2v2/3v3 maps" then even less people will play this maps.

[uzurpator]

Kayser - but the discussed issue here is - how to make people play open maps instead of the cozy gap/thermo. Or at least make people prefer to play aggresively instead of turtling.

Moreover - I understand your position here. However consider that there are gameplay changes that would benfit team games ( which, let's face it, is what most people play ) but would have a neglible impact on open smaller games.

A change to a T3 arty that makes it less of an 'I win' button would benefit team games, but I gather that T3 arty is rearely, if ever, used in smaller games.

Likewise - IMO hard restriction on mass fabrication ( especially on SCU ) would have neglible impact on the high rating games, since those people don't usually farm 40 SCUs needlessly dragging the game. However, a soft ceiling for mass economy would mean that at some point one _has to_ move out and secure territory to win. Even on gap or thermo.

Extend the range of t3 mobile arty by 10 and now walls of ravagers are quite easily removable but in the constant turmoil of high-rank game that would have fairly low impact, methinks.

Point being - the ''balance toward 1v1' created te problem so continuing on that path is not going to solve it.

[ZLO_RD]

T3 arty on smaller maps will always win because it is easier to build an I win button in a well entrenched base, especially in landlocked maps, then to actually try to do a coordinated attack.

well yes... land blocked maps... maps with no expansions... just sit in base and defend and build arty

Gap/Dgap/Thermo/Crater games ( so like: 80% of FAF ) usually end in a t3 arty spam.

Because it is to easy to defend from everything except arty

Since I am a noob who plays Dgap only (and thermo, of course). T3 arty makes any attempt at land control in those maps irrelevant, because once a team gets 2-3 t3 arties up, its GG most of the time and there is no sensible counter to it other then build more arty of your own and trying to snipe their arty.

arty spam is indeed a game-ender if they are in range of your base, about 3 arties is enought to break almost everything except from very well defended places with t3 shields. But on other maps that does not happen that way, because you can end game with different weapons other than arty or game-enders, or you need to win territory or else you will not have enought resources to build a game-ender.

99% of games ends in arty fight

That is expected... if you would make land experimentals instead they would just not fit in the gap xD
playing map that does not allow for attacking so people just make eco and then burn it on something that isn't a mass donation into the gap.
Same with navy, it would get stuck and get nuked, or it would take so long to break in that it would not be worth it, battleships hit montains, everything else gets killed by t2 arty

[uzurpator]

ITT: People who are, supposedly, intrested in making most of FAF to be played aggresively are now defending a situation that promotes turtling. Poetry in motion.

[Petricpwnz]

I demand the balance is restructured around 40x40 gameplay on flat. Thanks.

[moonbearonmeth]

[uzurpator]

I take offense. I don't play gap. its Ultinate you shall not pass with compulsory nuclear repulsor shields, because 5 hour games are awesome.

@Petricpwnz. That would be an intresting thing to ponder. Longer weapon ranges, more pressure on intel and movability. Current balance simply does not work on 40x40 in any context, so very few people play it.

I remember back in the day where the "le ebin 80x80 games" were the selling point of the game.

[Endranii]

When you played Gap but never got into the t2 stage cuz you had Chad Dro in your team to crush

I mean there must be simply something wrong if I never got into that amazing t3 arty stage on gap. So maybe it's the problem with players not the balance?

[uzurpator]

No, no, no. Still wrong. Ultinate You Shall Not Pass. BBC is after a long, arty match.

Endranii: I can't speak from experience on Gap, because I played it 5 or so times in total. But in my games it was always relentless usage of gunships that decided the game.

[____]

Since this thread is looking like a good candidate to get closed, I wanna take the opportunity to actually make a point.

The T3 land and T4 rebalance patch has been one of the most controversial patches in the history of FAF. It was argued, that "Experimentals have had very low buildtimes which often made thoughtless mass sinks".
Thereby T4 build times were nerfed considerably. At first, I was sceptical, I did not think that change would produce good results in the long term. However, after playing loads of games since then, I can without a doubt say, that I was 100% wrong. T4 units were just used to instantly counter an incoming army by spamming "MAAAAAAAAASS" in the team chat, or to thoughtlessly dump those odd 20k mass you got in storage since you didn’t plan 3 min into the future.
Overall low build time T4 units just promoted thoughtless and uninteresting gameplay imo.

This whole "thoughtlessly dumping mass" mechanic also applies to a lesser extent to T3 arties. You only need a couple of T3 engies and a good "Mass pls" macro for the allied chat and you can pretty much insta build them. Or just dump your storaged mass into them. Of course, this problem is not as big as with T4 Land units since arties cost far more mass, though I still don’t like the fact that they have such insanely low buildtimes.

Increasing the buildtimes would promote better eco management and people would actually be rewarded for planning ahead. Additionally, this would also make filthy Dual Gap whores like me happy