T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

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Re: T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 03 Nov 2018, 20:25

moses_the_red wrote:When I entered this thread the consensus was that T3 arty was in no way OP. People were saying that 20k mass in shields counters 70k mass in Arty.

Its taken something like 15 pages in this thread to finally break through all that, and it required a lot of basic math and replays to get here, and I had to push for this when nearly every poster in this thread was entirely dismissive of every word I said because of my rating.

But I think I have moved the conversation forward. I don't for instance see people still claiming that T3 arty is countered by a few shields.

Now you can go ahead and ignore all that while you push for something as silly as dynamic unit abilities based on map size if you want, but it doesn't make you correct.


Pls compare your posts with Blodir's posts. HE moved this conversation forward.
Last edited by QuestionMarkNoob on 03 Nov 2018, 20:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

Postby UnorthodoxBox » 03 Nov 2018, 20:32

moses_the_red wrote:I watched the replay.

Good work on making a test.

The problem is that you spend 32k shielding a very small area, in any game, 1v1 or team, you're going to need much more space shielded like that to stay competitive. And if you look at the cost of shielding that much space, its much more than 32k.

From my post: "You may argue that the shields only cover a tiny portion, but imagine 4 of those set ups covering a base. 4 x 32.4k is 129.6k. That will more than likely cover an entire base, AND costs nearly AN ENTIRE MEGALITH LESS IN MASS."
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Re: T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

Postby SpoCk0nd0pe » 03 Nov 2018, 20:49

IceDreamer wrote:I've long felt reclaim needs a change, because it does lead to an aggression-punishing game thought pattern. Having a different ratio for T4 is an absolute no-no, I agree that should never happen. But I would definitely like to see a small reduction in the amount, perhaps 10% less. Even more crucially, I feel we should experiment with cutting down the rate of reclaim, perhaps by as much as 75%, to slow down the instant reward a bit, and force you to hang on to a recent battleground longer.

I don't have much of a personal problem with the game shifting into a late-game siege status either, but I won't say that it's not nice to have other options. Particularly, now I think about it and think about the hundreds of games I've played and seen, that stage of the game in T3 that T2 sees between TMD/TML/Shields/PD fighting to let the ground forces in/hold them back, doesn't really happen very often. Not a bad idea to have a section where T3 arty/MML/Shields/PD are fighting to let the T3 bots in/hold them back.


I too think that shifting gameplay more towards units would benefit the game as a whole. From what I saw, I think this becomes more of a problem the longer the game goes (maybe because travel times become more of a problem if you invest more mass into units?). Reclaim is an important comeback mechanic which makes for fun games, so tweaks should be done with a lot of care. But I think slightly lowering the stakes of lategame unit attack would make the game more interactive. Maybe a very slight decrease in reclaim over higher tech levels? Like 2% T2, 5%T3, 10%T4?
Another decrease in reclaim speed would help a lot too because turtlers couldn't capitalize on a defeated attack as fast. As a side effect it would also widen the gap between manual reclaim BOs and the rest (but some interface improvements could narrow that gap :D ).
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Re: T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

Postby Evan_ » 04 Nov 2018, 03:00

moses_the_red wrote:
From my post: "You may argue that the shields only cover a tiny portion, but imagine 4 of those set ups covering a base. 4 x 32.4k is 129.6k. That will more than likely cover an entire base, AND costs nearly AN ENTIRE MEGALITH LESS IN MASS."


Your current argument is that for an entire team (4-5 people) to protect their entire bases against T3 arty, they will each need to build many shields, resulting in a total cost that is way higher than the individual Arty. And, as far as I'm concerned, this is true. Noone is really arguing you on this point. But to use this and say it's OP has a couple problems:

1: In the vast majority of games getting a t3 arty in the first place is impossible without dying to land. It could have 9 million dps for all the 3 incoming GCs care. The only time you can really get one without falling behind in production is when you get a massive reclaim field, in which case you could also make a ton of EXPs and win anyway.

2: the other team don't need to shield their (entire) bases until your arty is done. That's enough time to potentially double their eco, either through winning map control or just ecoing. Even when the arty does come up they don't immediately have to make a hundred thousand mass down either, they can keep pulling away in eco and only throw down a new shield when their current one drops below half health. You can start out with a couple of T3 and T2 shields, eco a bit more, then get more shields, and so on.

Furthermore, I disagree that the entire base needs to be shielded. It's not gonna be devastating if I lose a t3 mex or pgen because I didn't shield it, it's probably cheaper in the first place to just go rebuild it, and if he kills it again then great, I'm happy to keep his 72k installation occupied shooting at my 4k sacrifice. And if you want, 3/4 factions can put a mobile shield down on outlying stuff, and the other has extremely cheap t2 shields. These won't stop an arty, but they will double the time it takes to hit something on the edge of the map, essentially guarding against it completely since you can't afford to put that much time into killing just a single t3 mex with a 72k arty. Now don't get me wrong, even with all this it might still take more mass in shields than the cost of the arty, but by the time it's done, the non arty team wins the exchange because they can all easily afford the shields and retain their higher ecoes.

3: The situation you are envisioning is the ABSOLUTE BEST scenario for a person trying to build an arty. It completely ignores the fact that balance is primarily based around 1v1 (edit: based around 1v1 without trying to screw up teamgames), or that for 99% of teamgames on most maps, Arty will be impossible to get. You can look at Arty from a 1v1 perspective and argue it is vastly underpowered for it's cost and should be buffed, in fact that's what several people in the thread are saying.

keyser wrote:imo game should be design toward competitive scene. There is no competitivity scene in teamgame (apart to some extend setons). The only mod that is played at a competitive level is faf ladder. That's why i prefer to keep the balance toward this mod, while trying not f*** up completely the balance in teamgame.
And if we consider to balance the game around teamgame, i prefer to balance it around open 10x10/20x20 2v2/3v3 maps.

We are already suffering an issue having tons of people playing thermo/gap, if we make balance shitier on the "open 10x10/20x20 2v2/3v3 maps" then even less people will play this maps.


^which pretty much reflects the opinion of the balance team. Not every game is a 4v4 or a 5v5. You yourself mostly play 3v3s if I recall correctly.
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Re: T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

Postby FtXCommando » 04 Nov 2018, 04:02

If I’m facing a dude that makes a 75k arty to kill a 4600 mex, I’d just ctrl+k once I lose the mex because obviously I seriously messed up and need to reevaluate my life choices if it took me until min 27 to start beating a dude this bad at the game.
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Re: T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

Postby Farmsletje » 04 Nov 2018, 04:48

You'd have to play a game before you would be able to do that though
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Re: T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

Postby FtXCommando » 04 Nov 2018, 04:53

Not my fault.

I got nerfed
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Re: T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

Postby Blodir » 04 Nov 2018, 13:05

EvanGalea wrote:1: In the vast majority of games getting a t3 arty in the first place is impossible without dying to land. It could have 9 million dps for all the 3 incoming GCs care. The only time you can really get one without falling behind in production is when you get a massive reclaim field, in which case you could also make a ton of EXPs and win anyway.

yea ignore my post and pick on the low rating dude :cry:
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Re: T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

Postby Blodir » 04 Nov 2018, 13:15

keyser wrote:We are already suffering an issue having tons of people playing thermo/gap, if we make balance shitier on the "open 10x10/20x20 2v2/3v3 maps" then even less people will play this maps.


i don't know where this was posted, but this is absolutely disgusting elitism
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Re: T3 arties - noob heaven, need rebalance

Postby keyser » 04 Nov 2018, 14:08

thank you.
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