We need to talk about the Scathis.

[moses_the_red]

Let me approach this another way.

From the posts I'm seeing, it looks like balancing the Scathis in its current role is a no go, I don't agree with that, but so be it.

What would it take to change the Scathis' role? How much would a mod that modifies the Scathis help with this? Is this something that the balance team would even consider, or would I be wasting my time modding up a Scathis that is intended to fill another role?

[Farmsletje]

okay i can't be bothered to go into every little detail so i'll make it short.

First of all my points made were mostly talking about the old scathis which was very op on almost all 10km teamgame maps.

Secondly you're making tons of assumptions and suggestions about things you have no knowledge of, so simply none of it works like you think it'll do.

In short: old scathis was either useless or OP, new scathis is useless besides a few specific scenario's.

Will it stay this way? Most likely not. Eventually it'll be changed by the balance team to make it less shit. When will that be? No idea

[Endranii]

Give it stealth kappa.

[Wesmania]

IMO Scathis is in a perfect spot right now - nobody's using it, so nobody's complaining about it, just like fire beetles.

[uzurpator]

I actually found a pretty nice use for Scathis yesterday.

Mass cost notwithstanding, one of those esentially blocks naval assaults if it set to guard a strait of some sort. It can shot at navy with impunity and its DPS is so high that clusters of navy get sunk quite fast. Then you just go and reclaim the wreckage. Reclaim five or so battleships and Scathis comes in at a reasonable cost, frankly.

[moses_the_red]

okay i can't be bothered to go into every little detail so i'll make it short.

First of all my points were mostly talking about the old scathis which was very op on almost all 10km teamgame maps.

This post isn't attacking the previous patch that nerfed the scathis (although that patch did say in the patch notes that they were just nerfing it but not addressing what the team saw as its serious issues). We're talking here about what to do with the current scathis which is broken and no one seems to even be contesting that its broken.

Secondly you're making tons of assumptions and suggestions about things you have no knowledge of, so simply none of it works like you think it'll do.

How very convenient to bring those assumptions and lack of knowledge up without bothering to point any of it out such that it can be debated/disproven/verified or corrected.

In short: old scathis was either useless or OP, new scathis is useless besides a few specific scenario's.

Will it stay this way? Most likely not. Eventually it'll be changed by the balance team to make it less shit. When will that be? No idea

This post is about trying to establish some kind of consensus on what is wrong, and how it should be fixed, so that action can be taken, and if you didn't notice, I'm offering to help once I have some idea of what the direction people want is. This is purely a constructive post, attempting to rectify a serious game issue by gathering opinions and knowledge and narrowing down what kind of change might be acceptable to the community.

We are on the same side. No need to be combative.

[Farmsletje]

No NeED To Be sO CoMBAtIVe

Just giving you some facts. My bad won't do it again

How very convenient to bring those assumptions and lack of knowledge up without bothering to point any of it out such that it can be debated/disproven/verified or corrected.

Don't worry that doesn't need to happen because i'm right. Anyone that's slightly decent at the game can see that you're wrong.

But if you really want me to go through every thing

Ways to kill a scathis that are cheaper than 110k mass: - Build multiple nukes launchers with nukes. Cost 54k mass.

no

- Build T3 artillery behind the scathis' range and use it to snipe the scathis and or commanders and or wreck their economy. Since you get one up before the scathis you'll have done some damage before its even turned on.

no

- Tele, a cybran com with tele-maser should work, but you could also use tele-scus. Seraphim SCUs with nano + tele + shield cost about 20k each and do 400 DPS with 50k health. 3 of them is 60k in total mass cost, deals 1200 DPS and only has to do 15000 damage since they have the death nuke. If they have an absurd amount of PD/Ravagers or multiple monkeylords sitting on the scathis just target shields which are tightly packed and have 500 health. You should kill several with the death nuke alone, use that in combination with other methods. If that doesn't work for you target their SMD and nuke them. Tele is a very effective counter to "game enders" of any type.

no

- Bombers. 20 T3 bombers is 40k mass. More than half can die or have their damage mitigated by shields and you'll still kill the scathis on the first pass. Remember that a Scathis must be built close to the front, so bombers are far more effective against a scathis than they are against T3 arty.,

no

- Drops, 20 bricks and the t3 transports to drop them costs less than 30k mass. You might think that drops aren't viable but again, the scathis is in the front. As long as they didn't spend 110k mass on the scathis AND somehow achieve complete air superiority this should be viable. Drops are a terrible strategy for killing T3 artillery, but they are viable for a scathis.

no

- TML. You can build 50 TML for 50k mass, and because the Scathis must be built in front they will be in range of it.

no

I think doubling its damage output would fix it. It would be a unit that is vulnerable and must be built close, that costs 1.7 times as much as regular T3 artillery but delivers 3x the damage to a smaller area, an area so much smaller that even on 10x10s the difference is significant.

no

On an open map, I think this argument just falls flat. Because the map is open, your front is much larger, and so the defenders advantage must be spread across a much larger area. This makes T4 and T3 land armies far more viable than on closed maps, and is why you don't often see T3 artillery built on 10x10 open maps. T4 or plain old T3 spam is just a much better option in most cases. I think we can safely say that on open maps, a scathis is balanced by its mass, buying T3 and T4 land units should be not just be equally useful, it should be better in pretty much all cases. Covering the front on an open map with enough shields and point defense to prevent a break through of 110k mass in T4 or T3 land units just isn't going to happen unless the enemy has a huge mass advantage over you or your tactics are horrible.

no


This is just from 1 of your posts and i can't be bothered to literally explain how the game works.

[moses_the_red]

No NeED To Be sO CoMBAtIVe

Just giving you some facts. My bad won't do it again

How very convenient to bring those assumptions and lack of knowledge up without bothering to point any of it out such that it can be debated/disproven/verified or corrected.

Don't worry that doesn't need to happen because i'm right. Anyone that's slightly decent at the game can see that you're wrong.

But if you really want me to go through every thing

Ways to kill a scathis that are cheaper than 110k mass: - Build multiple nukes launchers with nukes. Cost 54k mass.

no

- Build T3 artillery behind the scathis' range and use it to snipe the scathis and or commanders and or wreck their economy. Since you get one up before the scathis you'll have done some damage before its even turned on.

no

- Tele, a cybran com with tele-maser should work, but you could also use tele-scus. Seraphim SCUs with nano + tele + shield cost about 20k each and do 400 DPS with 50k health. 3 of them is 60k in total mass cost, deals 1200 DPS and only has to do 15000 damage since they have the death nuke. If they have an absurd amount of PD/Ravagers or multiple monkeylords sitting on the scathis just target shields which are tightly packed and have 500 health. You should kill several with the death nuke alone, use that in combination with other methods. If that doesn't work for you target their SMD and nuke them. Tele is a very effective counter to "game enders" of any type.

no

- Bombers. 20 T3 bombers is 40k mass. More than half can die or have their damage mitigated by shields and you'll still kill the scathis on the first pass. Remember that a Scathis must be built close to the front, so bombers are far more effective against a scathis than they are against T3 arty.,

no

- Drops, 20 bricks and the t3 transports to drop them costs less than 30k mass. You might think that drops aren't viable but again, the scathis is in the front. As long as they didn't spend 110k mass on the scathis AND somehow achieve complete air superiority this should be viable. Drops are a terrible strategy for killing T3 artillery, but they are viable for a scathis.

no

- TML. You can build 50 TML for 50k mass, and because the Scathis must be built in front they will be in range of it.

no

I think doubling its damage output would fix it. It would be a unit that is vulnerable and must be built close, that costs 1.7 times as much as regular T3 artillery but delivers 3x the damage to a smaller area, an area so much smaller that even on 10x10s the difference is significant.

no

On an open map, I think this argument just falls flat. Because the map is open, your front is much larger, and so the defenders advantage must be spread across a much larger area. This makes T4 and T3 land armies far more viable than on closed maps, and is why you don't often see T3 artillery built on 10x10 open maps. T4 or plain old T3 spam is just a much better option in most cases. I think we can safely say that on open maps, a scathis is balanced by its mass, buying T3 and T4 land units should be not just be equally useful, it should be better in pretty much all cases. Covering the front on an open map with enough shields and point defense to prevent a break through of 110k mass in T4 or T3 land units just isn't going to happen unless the enemy has a huge mass advantage over you or your tactics are horrible.

no


This is just from 1 of your posts and i can't be bothered to literally explain how the game works.

Thank you for another useful post.

[moses_the_red]

Don't worry that doesn't need to happen because i'm right. Anyone that's slightly decent at the game can see that you're wrong.

Just to be clear, I've spoken with many "slightly decent at the game" players on Aeolus and pretty much all agree that the Scathis is broken, and a few agree that a damage increase would help.

Just telling me that I suck and saying "no" over and over again might be a convincing argument in your mind, but I think the consensus opinion here is that its broken in its current form. You don't like the idea of it keeping its current role, a few others have said that same thing. As I said in a previous post, fine I don't agree but so be it. You don't want a 300 range scathis that is competitive with T3 artillery. What role would people be willing to see it moved into and how do we start the process of moving it there?

[moses_the_red]

I'm going to add this here to, because I think its relevant and hasn't been discussed.

The best way to fix the Scathis is probably to just nerf T3 artillery, the splash in particular.

The Scathis is only weak in comparison to T3 artillery, which eclipses it in pretty much every way. Damage per unit mass, range, survivability.

A blanket T3 nerf of its splash would give the scathis purpose. You could even nerf the scathis' damage and reduce its cost so its slightly worse at base bombardment through shields. The splash would make up for it, make it a unique unit with some kind of role.

T3 arty's 9 splash is just ridiculous. It means that against T3 formations it can do the damage of an assault experimental.

T3 Arty would still be useful without splash, for targetting eco through shields. Its role would be preserved.

A side benefit is that this would also make the Novax more viable, which is the other unit that severely needs help.