#MAKE AEON GREAT AGAIN

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#MAKE AEON GREAT AGAIN

Postby Yolo- » 30 Sep 2018, 21:04

Dear respected Balance Team and fellow FAF players,
over the past few months there have been more and more players saying that the Aeon navy is weak and bad in comparison to the other factions. And they are right!

In this thread I, a 2200 rated Setons regular and navy master, will explain why Aeon navy is generally considered bad by pros.
aeon is bad.PNG
aeon is bad.PNG (5.04 KiB) Viewed 2328 times

I will give suggestions how to buff each unit and why, and also use this opportunity to discuss some buffs to seemingly completly forgotten units such as the Solace and Restorer.

NAVY:

First of all, let's make something clear: Aeon T2 navy is fine, and I don't want to change it!
However T1 and T3 stage are far from being balanced fairly. As Aeon you generally have to pay more mass and time to get less value compared to other factions. This is a big problem that prevents Aeon from being a viable faction for late game navy fights or rushing very fast in T1 stage. The only viable navy strategy Aeon has is Destroyer only spam, but in T3 stage it only really works againt Cybran, because UEF has BCs, sera hover and great Rate-of-Fire battleship with nice muzzle velocity. I know that UEF is supposed to be this super strong navy, that is almost unbreakable very late in the game. But in comparison to the absolute beast god tier Cybran navy or just great Sera navy, Aeon is insane garbage.

Frigate: The frigate is an essential part of a navy composition at every stage of the game (except for destroyer only strategy as aeon). It is always needed to tank damage, deal lots of damage, kill reclaim engis, "raid" factories, flanking the enemy, etc.
Aeons frigate is far worse compared to the frigs of other factions:

http://spooky.github.io/unitdb/#/UES0103,URS0103,UAS0103,XSS0103

As you can see the the aeon frig costs 40 more mass (16% more) than the cybran frig, takes longer to build, has less HP, the same damage, but 0 AA.
Aeon has to build their faction specific AA boat Shard to have a T1 AA solution for the water. It costs extra mass and time just to get an AA unit, while the other factions get their AA with their frigs for less time and mass cost. This just shows how terrible Aeon's T1 navy stage is.
People might ask "but what about the 3 more range and its torp defence". The 3 extra range is practically useless in fights, even if it lets you have the first shot, the frig would lose anyway because of its terrible rate of fire and low hp, not to mention that there would be less frigates in a equal mass cost fight.
The torp def ability is also kind of useless, but we should not put our focus on it, because making the frigate strong against subs completly misses the point. Aeon already has very strong destroyers and t2 subs against subs. There is no point in thinking about how a torp def buff could benefit the aeon frigate. It doesn't, because aeon frigs are supposed to fight!

It makes only sense to change what is causing this imbalance: mass cost and buildtime of the frigate.
I suggest reducing the mass cost by 40-50 and proportionally the buildtime. This would make the Aeon frig viable again as there would be more time and mass available to put into more frigs or Shards. This would also make aeon frigs better against hover, right now they are just terrible against it.
Whith this change the frigate would be as strong as the cybran one, however still without AA.

Shard: The shard has just been buffed recently to make it a better option. Right now I am not sure if it needs another buff, the frigate buff I just mentioned should be enough to make the Shard also better.

Omen: Now this is a topic that I had already heavily discussed in the past and thanks to it, it got buffed recently. However I, and many other good setons players for example, still think, that it is too weak, especially against UEF. I want its range buffed to atleast 110!
I will use the same argument that I used in my post from last year: http://forums.faforever.com/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15524
range.png
range.png (24.15 KiB) Viewed 2328 times

I am showcasing the perfect formation, a concave around the enemy, to effectively use all your bs and not clump them together. Ofc in real games the concave forms around an eellipsis, but this is a simple example.
As you can see in the picture, the space of effective microing, which is defined by the small black line and the range of each bs, is far smaller for Aeon bs than for Cybran or Sera bs. That means you have more bs in that small space that need to be microed in that space to still be able to fire at the enemy. With less space, it loses agility and can't move really well, it can be really easily blocked by other units, such as other bs or frigs. Sera and Cybran bs have much more space in comparison. And if you happen to just move out of that space as Aeon, which is hard to avoid with such low range, you lose time in which the aeon bs can fire at the enemy. It is also worth noting that when you micro the Omen, it loses its target and shoots at other stuff, such as frigs. Aeon can make Tempests against Sera and Cybran, but Tempests are completly hardcountered by UEF bs. That is why the Omen needs a buff that makes it competitive against UEF.
Therefore Omen needs a range buff.

Tempest: Right now the Tempest is just not a mass efficient unit, it is pretty hard to use it effectively. With the recent patch by reducing its buildtime it got even nerfed quite a bit. It gets completly raped by UEF. I don't want it to perform better against UEF, the Omen is the main unit against UEF.
I suggest some small mass cost reduction like 2-4k mass, to make it a bit more viable. I am not too sure about how it should perform and what good buffs/changes would be, so this is a topic for discussion where you can share ideas and suggestions!

AIR:

People used to say Aeon is the best air faction! Can you still say it now? What does Aeon have to offer that makes it better than other factions on air?
Well it has the best RAS(/ARAS) and nice Mercy and Swiftwinds. But what about Solace and Restorers? These two units are never seen in any games (atleast on setons), because they are pretty inefficient.

Solace: Let's compare the Solace with the T2 torpedo bomber: http://spooky.github.io/unitdb/#/UAA0204,XAA0306
As you can see the Solace costs as much as 7 t2 torps, with only 4.5x their hp and only 4.3x their dps (In this chart is a mistake, the solace does 320dps, 4k damage)
The torpedo bombs of the Solace are slower than the bombs of the T2 torp bomber, which means that some ships can actually outrun them and effectively avoid some of the Solace's dps. This should be changed, the bombs should be made faster. Solace dps shouldn't be avoided, considering the cost of the Solace.
I also wouldn't mind a small speed or hp buff, so that the Solace would be a better option against navies with lots of hover flak.

Restorer: http://spooky.github.io/unitdb/#/UAA0203,XAA0305,XRA0305,UEA0305
I think the main problem of the Restorer is its terrible slow speed. I would suggest to change its speed to 10 like the other T3 gunships. It might still not be enough to make them viable, but let's see what other ideas people have.

Czar: Not sure about this one, we don't really see it in games, except for after a para. Maybe people can come up with good ideas for changes, maybe it doesn't even need changes.


Also let me say a few words about "faction diversity". I don't want any random clueless noobs or casual faf players coming into this thread, talking about how I would not respect the faction diversity and would only make everything the same. Such statements are false, completly baseless and only show ignorance. A lot of units are designed to be similar and fulfill the same job, like engis, factories, eco .... Take Asf or intis for example, imagine they wouldn't be the same. The game would be completly unbalanced. It is the same for naval units. I don't have a problem with Aeon having AA-less frigates and extra AA boats. I just want it to be balanced properly so that it makes fun to play as Aeon. The T2 stage has some great diversity and I don't want to change any of it, because it makes fun! Each faction is well balanced (except for sera destroyers being raped by T2 subs, I will talk about this in a different thread). But the diversity in T3 stage is not fun, because Aeon is terribly weak and bad. Increasing the range of the Omen is not destroying the faction diversity, it is necessary and only making it more balanced.

Now the funny thing is, that there are units such as the Tempest, Solace and Restorer, that are supposed to make Aeon different from other factions. But they are so ineffecient, that nobody ever makes them. AND NOBODY FUCKING CARES, but when I want to increase the Omen range, everyone starts to cry about their precious idea of faction diversity, apparently without even understanding what it actually means. IF you want to make Aeon T3 navy stage more diverse, then make the fucking Tempest a VIABLE option without breaking game balance. But that means that you have to inevitably improve the Omen against UEF, if you don't want to completly reblance the Tempest.

I want to play as Aeon beach spot without thinking and saying "gg"!
I want to be happy about being Aeon air spot, not just because of the best RAS(/ARAS) but also because of the nice faction specific T3 air units.
I want to play as Aeon navy, without having to worry about losing or winning very late.
I want to enjoy Aeon navy!
I acutally want to be happy about having Aeon navy!

Anyway, share your thoughts and suggestions for the Aeon Air buffs, and possibly different, better changes for the navies, BUT DO NOT start useless garbage discussions about how aeon navy is already balanced well, because IT IS NOT! If you think the Solace and Restorer are fine, then show me some examples or provide some other good explanation of strategies/tactics, that let me understand my possible mistake.

Also if you have some other issues regarding Aeon balance then post them here!
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Re: #MAKE AEON GREAT AGAIN

Postby moonbearonmeth » 30 Sep 2018, 22:01

Just spitballing here but regarding the Tempest perhaps you could increase the muzzle velocity/turret rotation?
This could probably help with ship vs ship combat.
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Re: #MAKE AEON GREAT AGAIN

Postby QuestionMarkNoob » 30 Sep 2018, 22:17

The aeon destroyer, battleship and the tempest might get quite a significant buff in the next balance patch. You can already try them out in the Beta and the buffs work quite well IMO. I would love seeing some Beta games on Seton's being played.

https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/2507/commits

Though the frig is still very bad and a slight buff would certainly not hurt :) .

EDIT: The Restorer gets a speed increase in Beta and t2 torp bombers catch a nerf to mass cost.
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Re: #MAKE AEON GREAT AGAIN

Postby Yolo- » 30 Sep 2018, 22:43

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:The aeon destroyer, battleship and the tempest might get quite a significant buff in the next balance patch. You can already try them out in the Beta and the buffs work quite well IMO. I would love seeing some Beta games on Seton's being played.

https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/2507/commits

Though the frig is still very bad and a slight buff would certainly not hurt :) .

EDIT: The Restorer gets a speed increase in Beta and t2 torp bombers catch a nerf to mass cost.

Lol why did nobody tell me about this, wasted all this time to write my thread ...

Anyway, can't wait for the changes, I will definitely host beta games, as soon as I start playing again. Also I LOVE the Omen range increase to 118!!! YEEEEESSSSS

Now only need to change frigs and possibly shards, for the reasons I mentioned. I would also really like ships to not be able to outrun some or most of the Solance torps.

EDIT: Nvm.. Forgot to look at the other stuff and see Omen range down to 110 ..........
Also with this big t2 torp nerf the Solace gets better, however I still want its torp bombs to be fixed, so that none of them can be outrun.
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Re: #MAKE AEON GREAT AGAIN

Postby JoonasTo » 01 Oct 2018, 06:47

Even if it becomes decent to fight with Aeon navy from beach, that win will still be useless as you can't hit anything with the hills in the way until you get a Tempest.

Destroyer Firing Arc fix pls.
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Re: #MAKE AEON GREAT AGAIN

Postby PandaCuddles » 01 Oct 2018, 08:45

JoonasTo wrote:Even if it becomes decent to fight with Aeon navy from beach, that win will still be useless as you can't hit anything with the hills in the way until you get a Tempest.


What about Torrents? I don't play Setons (or navy) often, so I'm not really qualified to say something about navy balance, but as Yolo- didn't bash them I assume they might be ok?
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Re: #MAKE AEON GREAT AGAIN

Postby Petricpwnz » 01 Oct 2018, 10:19

Too long didnt read but ill just say that i already changed resto for more speed among other things, aeon bs for 110 range + it had some fix for rate of retargetting by strogo already, tempest cost decrease and hit consistency improvement, destro splash increase + jagged did some frig torp defense buff
moonbearonmeth wrote:Just spitballing here but regarding the Tempest perhaps you could increase the muzzle velocity/turret rotation?

Was already buffed last patch too
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Re: #MAKE AEON GREAT AGAIN

Postby JoonasTo » 01 Oct 2018, 10:57

PandaCuddles wrote:
JoonasTo wrote:Even if it becomes decent to fight with Aeon navy from beach, that win will still be useless as you can't hit anything with the hills in the way until you get a Tempest.


What about Torrents? I don't play Setons (or navy) often, so I'm not really qualified to say something about navy balance, but as Yolo- didn't bash them I assume they might be ok?

Yes and no.
They’re kind of okay, worse than battleships but better than nuke subs with range between both.
The thing is you win navy you already have destroyers, cruisers(maybe) and battleships(possibly.) You don’t have torrents unless you’re doing some hipster UEF shieldboat barraging or factory locking. Even then only one or maybe two. Other factions will just sail to shore and everything dies. Aeon will have to get T3 and spend 40k more mass plus wait for it all to get across before they can do the same.

Unless the map is very flat ofc.
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Re: #MAKE AEON GREAT AGAIN

Postby Apofenas » 01 Oct 2018, 13:09

Petricpwnz wrote:Too long didnt read but ill just say that i already changed resto for more speed among other things, aeon bs for 110 range + it had some fix for rate of retargetting by strogo already, tempest cost decrease and hit consistency improvement, destro splash increase + jagged did some frig torp defense buff

...cough...

Frigate torp defence is not "missing the point". It is about fixing things that don't work since GPG. It is kinda funny that there is comment left about projectile targetting in projectile code. When this torp defence works it is just enough to compensate lack of AA for frigate. If anything has to be buffed in this area is Shard.

Got to add point on Shard. Recent "buff" was just aimed to make Shard survive single torp bomber with 50 hp.. This is miserable buff. You could make it +1 hp and it'd have same affect. I did some comparasment graph with suggestions before last patch Instead it should have been 120->80 mass cost so you could just get more Shards for same cost = more efficient AA; more Shards on the field and more health total.

CZAR and Restorer changes are kinda pointless. ASF will eat them any way. Just look at EQ CZAR with 150k hp and proper AA. AA that fcking works well. Jagged! Fix CZAR flak cannons!. Nerfed ASFs still eat it hard. I have to ask: does balance team want to keep CZAR beam penalty on ASF? It was introduced to make CZAR not insta-vet when ASF fly into the beam. New veterancy system prevents that just fine since 45km CZAR won't survive long enough to vet by eating 350m ASFs.
BalanceVictim wrote:I tried it out, and yes, the anti-torpedo is a useful tool now. Sadly, the rest of the unit is still extremely weak compared to any other frig
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Re: #MAKE AEON GREAT AGAIN

Postby Petricpwnz » 01 Oct 2018, 14:02

Apofenas wrote:Just look at EQ

k
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