Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

[JoonasTo]

players should be able to easily see the exact ways to survive a bad situation instead of hoping for the best, it's detracting from the depth of the game that SupCom is generally and appreciated for.

Totally true.

I'm just trying to think in solution : the predictability issue comes from that XP reward is postponed after units death. It may be more predictable and more realistic to reward XP at making damage not at unit's death. Why worrying about keeping all values until unit's death ?

At the same time, it will be less CPU consuming (no condition test, no instigator table to keep...). The simple way is often the best.

I thought of that as well but as long as our vet is insta-heal, it's a balance problem. You send two tanks to fight each other and because the other vets mid-fight it wins. It's worse than the current system.

[Franck83]

players should be able to easily see the exact ways to survive a bad situation instead of hoping for the best, it's detracting from the depth of the game that SupCom is generally and appreciated for.

I'm just trying to think in solution : the predictability issue comes from that XP reward is postponed after units death. It may be more predictable and more realistic to reward XP at making damage not at unit's death. Why worrying about keeping all values until unit's death ?

While i do like the idea of that (company of heroes!), its not really the reason
It's more about being able to easily see and calculate how far away you are from a vet level on the fly, even in intense moments aka your acu is at like 500hp and etc,
Consider this scenario, you're two points away from a vet level, with the old system, that's two kills on t1 units. You see that and turn back into the fight to vet up and continue your push/defense etc.
With the new system, that "two kills" is now split up into any unknown combinations of t1 units, of which a player will most likely not know the stat costs of. It adds a major amount of uncertainty that can lead to frustration.

It's why i suggested a minor change to the older vet system, with similar objectives to the new system with the same easy to calculate and easy to "game" method of the old one.

Yes, i understand. So the vet system must be not only predictable and fair but easily readable. When you are in tricky situation, you must be able to gauge the steps to go out.

[Franck83]

players should be able to easily see the exact ways to survive a bad situation instead of hoping for the best, it's detracting from the depth of the game that SupCom is generally and appreciated for.

Totally true.

I'm just trying to think in solution : the predictability issue comes from that XP reward is postponed after units death. It may be more predictable and more realistic to reward XP at making damage not at unit's death. Why worrying about keeping all values until unit's death ?

At the same time, it will be less CPU consuming (no condition test, no instigator table to keep...). The simple way is often the best.

I thought of that as well but as long as our vet is insta-heal, it's a balance problem. You send two tanks to fight each other and because the other vets mid-fight it wins. It's worse than the current system.

Right. Maybe postpone insta-heal after vet if the unit is not taking damages anymore since an amount of time (10s for example). It can be coded.

[Freedomfighter]

Another observation from watching a replay just now, the old ACU vet was 20, 40, 65, 90, 120 vet points, on t1 tanks that is 1000, 2000, 3250, 4500, and 6000 mass worth, atm it goes 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, which obviously less. Any plans to make it more difficult to gain the higher vet levels on the ACU? I feel it is too easy to get the higher vet levels now.

[Farmsletje]

Also you gain a ludacris amount of vet from buildings now. Killing t2 extractors gives you half the vet for the next vet lvl, and pd & shields vet you up like crazy too.

[Ithilis_Quo]

Units in this game are balanced mainly by price especialy mass price. So units with higer mass cost are in most situation more important / stronger / harder to kill.
And for units that are harder to kill should be biger reward as for units that are easier to kill or are less important ant etc..

When you talk something abou its not preditctable, then you are wrong while it is predictable. Donw you have indicator, and dont say me taht you dont know how much units cost. When you have 980/1000 obviously kiling tank will get you vet. t1 tanks cost 52-56m t2 200-360 t3 480-1260 dont say me that you dont know that number and if not then its your fault learn it.

about

the old ACU vet was 20, 40, 65, 90, 120 vet points, on t1 tanks that is 1000, 2000, 3250, 4500, and 6000 mass worth, atm it goes 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, which obviously less.

its not so obviously, while 120 can be destroying 120 t1 scout that cost 8m = 960mass exp that is not even first vet.
Or 120 can be 13 battlehips that cost 10500m what is 140 000 mass exp.
And this is the issue why its much better, that in previous system where game dont see diferences that is 145x bigger.

But be real you will not most likely be destroying 13 bs with acu, more likely tanks, and for killing percival you get 1260 what is not same as 450 when use your calculation to t1 tanks cost. (There is some indicator that decrese xp from higer tech for acu, i dont know %, but it make it less rewarded on higer tech) When building get too much exp while cost too much similar indicator can be used also on building. but it make system less predictable and harder to read.

About simplicity, and importantce of veterancy. This system make veterancy more important as was any time before. While this game is about managing army, and army get experieve fot they succed. Its more simply as was any time before, while who know how much xp was needed before for obsidian to get vet ? it was probably 12 but im not sure and maybe 2 ppl here know it. How much xps is need for vet percival, wagner, GC, soulrepaer? what you know is only acu and nothing else. Now you know that vet is double price of unit. and exp need half price as unit, you can naturaly calcul stengh of armyies and compare how much that army should cost compare to your and dont even loock on indicator most of time. Did you even notice that rhino was 3 vet? no, it was only on acu and exp and cause there infinite cancer.

[twentyseven]

t1 tanks cost 52-56m t2 200-360 t3 480-1260 dont say me that you dont know that number and if not then its your fault learn it.

That's a problem. You cannot seriously expect that players will want to become better at this game or even attract new players when this is what they need to memorize. I mean. if the numbers were all equal and nicely rounded maybe it could work but, as you say yourself, theyre not. And they are many.
And to my understanding this vet system only rewards the amount of damage you dealt. How the hell am I suppose to keep track whether or not one of my units is or has been "stealing" vet that i might desperately need?

Don't ask yourself. Ask a 1000 or 1300 rated player if he wants to sit and do math while hes using all of his 12 apm to get out of a sticky situation. Tell a newcomer how veterancy works and see if he loves the complex algorithms that go behind them.
I bet you (1260-480*0.82)dx/dt + 10 mass that they don't want this

[Ithilis_Quo]

player with 12atm probably dont even know what is veterancy. And algorythm: kill double your price to get vet, is much easier to remeber as learn every posible number of vet levels of units. Did you know how much number it is? About 2150. If i ask you how much vet point need ML to get second vet, did you know? and ML is second most remebert vet number in game after acu. And 99,5% players dont know that.

About predictibility, you dont need know how much exaktli units cost, but you can asume it. and if you cant asume it, then we are back in argument that on this level you realy dont need know how much you need to kill to get vet, while on this skill level it realy doesnt mather.

Indicator dont say you concrete units taht you need kill but say you that you are veeery close or you are far away. And depend on situation you make decision toward it.

[Farmsletje]

player with 12atm probably dont even know what is veterancy. And algorythm: kill double your price to get vet, is much easier to remeber as learn every posible number of vet levels of units. Did you know how much number it is? About 2150. If i ask you how much vet point need ML to get second vet, did you know? and ML is second most remebert vet number in game after acu. And 99,5% players dont know that.

About predictibility, you dont need know how much exaktli units cost, but you can asume it. and if you cant asume it, then we are back in argument that on this level you realy dont need know how much you need to kill to get vet, while on this skill level it realy doesnt mather.

Indicator dont say you concrete units taht you need kill but say you that you are veeery close or you are far away. And depend on situation you make decision toward it.

What are you even talking about? Are you seriously arguing that the new vet system is easier to understand than the old one?

Okay then

old system: 13/20 vet. Need to kill 7 more t1 units.
new system: 628/1000 vet. Need, uhm.... (1000 - 628) / 56 = 6,64 strikers or (1000 - 628) / 10,33 lobo's. But there are also t1 scouts that give you (1000-628) / 12 = 31 kills for a vet. So i get exactly to my vet when i kill 6 strikers + (0,64 * 56) / 12 = 3 snoops.

Well i'm glad the system got easier!

[biass]

player with 12atm probably dont even know what is veterancy. And algorythm: kill double your price to get vet, is much easier to remeber as learn every posible number of vet levels of units. Did you know how much number it is? About 2150. If i ask you how much vet point need ML to get second vet, did you know? and ML is second most remebert vet number in game after acu. And 99,5% players dont know that.

You're really not helping out your position here.
In the old system, you have a 1/20 or so system, and you need to know at least 3 and at most 4 numbers, to fully understand the counter system and calculate the veterancy, and if you didn't know the number of points an ML needed? just look at the counter.

The issue is when each unit has it's own individual mass count, you don't know how many kills are going to fill up the required number on the counter, say if i took out a t1 arty, a tank, 2 engies, and then a scout, thats just 1+1+2+1 in the old system, now include it to the new one, that's now <artycost> + <tankcost> + <engycost>*2 + <scoutcost> - damage done by other units, are you beginning to see why people find it hard to calculate?

Also, as cute as it is "haha flaw X but don't worry it's irrelevant" i protest against the ideology, people have a diverse range of ways to play the game and we have to find the system best for everyone, don't say "haha they wont x or y or b" because someone will, and they'll be here to complain about it sooner, later, or even already.

Spoiler: show

hey listen okay i started typing before farms did git out pls