Balance patch 3688 Feedback Thread

[speed2]

This table https://github.com/FAForever/fa/blob/de ... 1293-L1301
stores the units not their IDs
So if the unit doesn't exist anymore the first condition on line 1296 if unit is nil (same as false) so vet is not given.
If the unit still exists but it's dead already, then the second condition stops it and not unit.Dead

So what you describe can't happen.

[Franck83]

Ty, i will keep the tip

[keyser]

There is a sum up of what might change / might impact the game in a bad way due to vet change :
1- regen doesn't cancel the damage done : have a com on com fight in early game, let both acu regen, then snipe 1 acu at min 20 for example, 1st ACU does get some vet from it (even if it's hidden in his base). Even more obvious when we talk about high regen due to nano on scu/acu, regen aura, repair...
2- ctrl k does still give vet, so if you ctrl k an unit the damage you did will still transfer as vet. This mean that after a com on com battle, if you go for the draw, ctrl k when your opponent is under 2.5K hp might give him a vet.
3- (this one will be fix for sure) there is a bug that make vet fully given even if there is a ctrl k. ie : you ctrl k at 5k life, you still give 2k mass/vet spread into the unit that deal damage to you proportionality.
4- reclaim doesn't count as damage. This mean that if you reclaim a GC at 99% (extreme case to make it obvious), then OC it with ACU and get 5 vet.

So the idea of "mass based vet and proportional repartition of vet linked to the damage done" seems nice, but there is some side effect that can badly impact the general gameplay.

[biass]

At first I didn't know that the veterancy was split out per damage dealt and was very opposed to the system, upon knowing it was like this i was less opposed but im still not sure that the system is really ready to be implemented properly.
I agree that "battleship and spyplane give same vet" was a bit of an issue but at least the system could be better used by the player to maximise advantages with micro and etc. There are also as said by players thousands of times that the interactions between a higher tech unit attacking lower tech units are now way worse and i do think the already minor issue of t2 not being super worth rushing against t1 is going to become worse with this patch.
I would suggest a minor modifier to the older points system relating to the military branch the killed unit was in, for example more points for a naval unit and less for an air unit, then this system so far.

I'm happy with the other changes, maybe T3 gunships didn't really need these secondary abilities but i feel like the other unit changes were well thought out.

[ThomasHiatt]

reclaim doesn't count as damage. This mean that if you reclaim a GC at 99% (extreme case to make it obvious), then OC it with ACU and get 5 vet.

If reclaim counts as damage then we will probably see more tech ACUs reclaiming armies and getting vet from it, I'm not sure if that is desirable or not.

[Wesmania]

There are also as said by players thousands of times that the interactions between a higher tech unit attacking lower tech units are now way worse and i do think the already minor issue of t2 not being super worth rushing against t1 is going to become worse with this patch.

It would be really nice if higher tech units (except experimentals) got some percentage bonuses against lower tech units - something like a bonus 100% for t2 vs t1, 50% for t3 vs t2, maybe 25% t3 vs t1 and so on. It also kind of makes sense given that veterancy is not just about getting skill in killing valuable stuff, but also in killing a lot of stuff.

[PhilipJFry]

i do think the already minor issue of t2 not being super worth rushing against t1 is going to become worse with this patch.

T2 land units used to require 8 vet points for one rank.
T1 land units gave 1 vet point.
So you had to kill 8 T1 units with one T2 for a vet rank.

The main land combat units at the T2 stage cost between 200 and 360 mass while the main T1 land combat units are close to 50.
So you need to kill 4-7 T1 units with one T2 to get one vet rank.

How exactly did that make it worse (aside from land scouts giving little to no vet)?

Spoiler: show

don't get me wrong the current implementation is certainly not flawless but i would like to see at least some evidence to back up such a claim

nvm i forgot about the 200% modifier my bad

[Franck83]

It would be really nice if higher tech units (except experimentals) got some percentage bonuses against lower tech units - something like a bonus 100% for t2 vs t1, 50% for t3 vs t2, maybe 25% t3 vs t1 and so on. It also kind of makes sense given that veterancy is not just about getting skill in killing valuable stuff, but also in killing a lot of stuff.

Yes, it's strange but health diff factor between tech 1 and tech 2 is high (sometimes 10x) but not their dps. Some mods like equilibrium move towards reducing this difference.
So lot of players skip the tech 2 stage and go directly to tech 3. The veterancy tech 2 regen doesn't resolve the issue

A lot can be done. For now, veterancy give an health + regen bonus. There are a lot of solutions :
1. In real life veterancy give accuracy. Implementing accuracy system may be more realistic.
2. Giving higher tech units rate of fire bonus instead of health bonus ?
3. Another solution can be simply reducing all tech 1 units dps
4. mass xp bonus can be adjusted to reduce the mass difference between units. (ie Xp ^ (0.5 or 0.7) allows tech 2 units to vet easily. A *10 mass diff factor is reduced to 2 with ^0.5...).

The goal is to find a consensual solution.

[keyser]

If reclaim counts as damage then we will probably see more tech ACUs reclaiming armies and getting vet from it, I'm not sure if that is desirable or not.

it's true, but we could/should make it so reclaim remove mass worth of the unit. ie : reclaim the unit at 50%, make the unit worth only 50% of its mass. But this can be an issue of the unit regen.

So best solution would be to calculate how much damage the unit does. ie : Com does 12k damage with his OC, and not 100% of the remaining health on the unit. So 12k, would be 1/9 of GC, you would get only 1/9 of killing a GC, and not 5 vet.

[IceDreamer]

I'd like to point out that the system is highly customisable. So the actual balance concerns people are having with "How much killing needs to happen to vet" are down to toggles and sliders in the code. I initially introduced the system to Jagged with units needing 125% their own cost in mass to vet. He increased that to 200% for some odd reason. IMO it should probably be <!00% (How many units EVER do more than their own mass-worth in damage??).

Giving vet on ctrl-K is a bug if it's happening. There should be a section of code to specifically exclude that.
Gaining vet through reclaim wasn't considered by me, but now I have I think it's desireable. Vet is there to reward a player for having their units do harm to the enemy. While reclaiming isn't a conventional weapon, it still reduces enemy HP and harms their units, so it should be rewarded. Just a different type of attack IMO.
Regen shouldn't impact the vet, other than that if a unit takes a long time to die thanks to very high regen, more enemy units will have been involved in killing it, so each will have a smaller proportion of the mass. (If the unit has had, say, 3 times its normal HP used up before dying thanks to regen being involved, the "Mass value" given to each attacker is still unitmass * (damage/totaldamage). The mass awarded can never exceed the unit's actual mass, no matter the regen.)