Cyb ACU´s cloak useless

[biass]

so I talked about this with Jagged and he told me to write on forum...
so Cybran has no early/mid/late def upgrade, ONLY very late, that is not just bad, but super expensive

about offensive cloak ACU, yea by the time you can afford it, enemy team will have omni tower, so remains defensive use...,

hmm...

so both ACUs are upgraded, then Aeon player need to build stealth gen in base
--- now only scout can find Aeon ACU ( just like Cyb´s) , Aeon has way more HP then Cyb and can get it much cheaper and much earlier

hmm
Fam cybran can get a stealth upgrade (before cloak) that costs less then the aeon stealth building alone (not counting the t2 upgrade costs which make this comparison even more skewed towards cybran) and the acu can walk anywhere without fear of losing the stealth field bonus, and can be got even faster then the aformentioned as well

The blip change, while maybe being nice to players for consistency, would literally change nothing when it came to being in omni range, because either A: you have scouted most of not everything by that point and the blip would read the same as the only other icon that was strangely missing.... Or people could (as people do with experimentals) mouse over the larger then most hitbox and tell that it was the acu. if they didn't just send a scout over.

so why is cloak bad?
- super expensive
- give only 15k HP
- omni reveal ACU model (not show it is radar blip, like you know mole under radar)
- drain -3000 e Are these not the same?
- can be targeted Are these not the same?

you quote "omni" as some all encompassing counterpoint but reminder that incase you forgot
~ Omni is not a cheap building (with a 2000 e drain)
~ Weak, is DOA if targeted by enemy action
~ Is locked behind an artificial tech requirement (not really a huge point, but to have omni you must have t3, whereas you could get cloak on t1 if you/teammate(s) have the eco
~ Has a limited range, and more often needs to be built outside of your base to scan for enemy (leads back to point number 2)

I'm starting to wonder if you forgot that without the presence of a special radar mode that is often limited, hard to get, and expensive, your acu is literally invisible
And lets not pair that with the not mentioned yet but still important to mention Mazer, what happens if omni gets sniped?

I do think that Cybran has a lack of acu HP to stack on in the mid game, i do not think this area is the place you want to be looking at
For one:
Cybran's combat ACU is still amazing at both early (with stealth) and late (mazer, stealth/cloak, T3)
And two:
And you have to be careful with chipping away at a faction's weaknesses, there were shitstorms about this a few months ago, remember?

[Wesmania]

~ Omni is not a cheap building (with a 2000 e drain)

Cloak is even more expensive, so by the time you get it, your oponent will have omni covering his core base.

~ Weak, is DOA if targeted by enemy action

Any competent player will shield it.

I'm starting to wonder if you forgot that without the presence of a special radar mode that is often limited, hard to get, and expensive, your acu is literally invisible

A slightly competent team will scout out a cloaked ACU within 20 seconds of it being first used.

Cybran's combat ACU is still amazing at both early (with stealth) and late (mazer, stealth/cloak, T3)

It's only useful if you're doing a T1 rush. By late t1 / early t2 it's outclassed by UEF nano, first aeon shield and even sera gun + t2, and remains useless for the rest of the game save for mazer / telemazer snipes.

[biass]

You're carefully omitting parts from the quotes or missing points entirely to make your case seem stronger and you thought i wouldn't notice?

~ Omni is not a cheap building (with a 2000 e drain)
Cloak is even more expensive, so by the time you get it, your opponent will have omni covering his core base.

An Omni radar is a t3 mexes worth of mass (plus a constant t3 pgen, which also costs another t3 mexes worth of mass) you would have to spend to counter something that might not be your slot/mirror, there is a reason there is only one omni per team

~ Weak, is DOA if targeted by enemy action
Any competent player will shield it.

One; this is not an argument
Two, you omitted the part wherein i mentioned to get a substantial cover over the enemies base (where the player would be using cloak for defensive play) you would need to build the omni up close, even at the front lines in a game, shields are not an end all block of any projectile coming towards it and go so far as to be a magnet for indirect fire such as t3 mobile arty, t2 stationary arty, mml, etc. And if the shield drops? the omni sensor doesn't stand a chance.

I'm starting to wonder if you forgot that without the presence of a special radar mode that is often limited, hard to get, and expensive, your acu is literally invisible
A slightly competent team will scout out a cloaked ACU within 20 seconds of it being first used.

See point one of above
In this part we're still talking about defensive use, so for you to scout it out, you would then need to A, have a reason to look for the acu (snipes, game ender, etc), notice the acu is missing, make the mental connection in your head that the largely underused cloak is in play, build the T3 spy plane/request it from a teammate, and then send it over their base, just to discover that congrats, the acu is sitting in base doing nothing

If for offensive, what happens if you're paying attention to something else and bam attacked? it's easy to miss, the acu is invisible remember?
""""Slight competence""""" means nothing, even a pro will not have eyes on all parts of the map at once to notice a red beam and damage dealt for a second or two, especially if microing air, or otherwise

Cybran's combat ACU is still amazing at both early (with stealth) and late (mazer, stealth/cloak, T3)
It's only useful if you're doing a T1 rush. By late t1 / early t2 it's outclassed by UEF nano, first aeon shield and even sera gun + t2, and remains useless for the rest of the game save for mazer / telemazer snipes.

You can happily use cybran gun + stealth well into t2 phase, people seem to like the idea that t1 air scouts do not cost mass and are invulnerable but if you get denied in that area you lose out on a lot of potential dps, especially if you're aeon,

You omit the late guncom i mention where the acu also has the t3 build suite, the best ACU weapon in the game, and is still stealth ed (invisible, if you have cloak)
Are you going to tell me Shield+T3+Gun on a UEF acu is going to beat the aforementioned? hmmm...

[Wesmania]

Have you ever tried using lategame cybran combo ingame? Are you aware that by the time you get it, people are starting to make experimentals and the best you can do is overcharge them while hoping you can tank the damage (which Cybran is by far the worst at)? I understand that you're also going to sacrifice extended mazer and overcharge range for inconsequential 7k health?

Comments like this make me think that you've never tried to play aggressive cybran com in your life, let alone in the late game.

[This_Guy]

I just want to comment and say i have seen pro players (i.e. Turinturambar) use cloak mazor and kill people in base before. Most teamgames dont have omni in base btw, and hold fire so they dont see you shoot until too late is nice. I have no real say in this discussion, just wanted to add it can work.

[biass]

Have you ever tried using lategame cybran combo ingame? Are you aware that by the time you get it, people are starting to make experimentals and the best you can do is overcharge them while hoping you can tank the damage (which Cybran is by far the worst at)? I understand that you're also going to sacrifice extended mazer and overcharge range for inconsequential 7k health?

Comments like this make me think that you've never tried to play aggressive cybran com in your life, let alone in the late game.

Stop trying to act that everyone that thinks differently to you is misinformed or uneducated; or noone is ever going to take your verbal diarrhoea seriously (if they ever did)

You understand that you don't have much need to tank damage if you cannot be hit because you're literally invisible?

And if you have T3 you have the (build power that helps upgrade) and the BP to make shields to ""tank the damage""

Don't cry about not being able to tank damage and then disregard 7k HP, you sound lost and confused and maybe just desperately fighting for cybran buffs...

[Wesmania]

You understand that you don't have much need to tank damage if you cannot be hit because you're literally invisible?

And if you have T3 you have the (build power that helps upgrade) and the BP to make shields to ""tank the damage""

Don't cry about not being able to tank damage and then disregard 7k HP, you sound lost and confused and maybe just desperately fighting for cybran buffs...

Cloak would indeed be as powerful as you claim (OP, even), except that it exists only in the context of late t3 - which means quickly produced T3 scouts and enemy ACUs behind shields and next to PDs. If you aim for the ACU snipe and don't have gun, you'll enter ACU omni range before you even start dealing damage - and since the enemy ACU is almost certainly under layered shield and next to plenty of DPS, your 30k HP will evaporate before you enven start damaging the enemy ACU. If the enemy ACU is careless enough to not have all this, then 90% of the time you could've killed him with mazer drop 5 minutes earlier.

If you go for base kill instead, it'll take too long - long enough that the enemy will send a t3 scout, then an experimental your way, at which point you're better off having built a Monkeylord instead. The only consistent use scenario for cloaked mazer ACU is killing unprepared attacking experimentals, assuming there are no GCs nearby. This scenario is just about good enough to justify upgrading cloak.

[ZETTAHEX]

I will say that Cybran cloak is an amazing upgrade that seems to be balanced too far into the late game. I do think there should be something that allows it to show up in team games more often/earlier in the game (But not so much that it becomes OP in larger maps like setons). Also @Biass I just looked at the github, a t3 omni and pgen cost a combined 5.64k mass and 87k energy whereas a single t3 mex is 4.6k mass and 31k power. A maser-cloak comm costs 10.5 k mass and a whopping 1.25 M energy, not including the t3 and t2 (minimum) pgens required to run without e-stalling. Just thought I'd bring a more objective viewpoint with numbers I don't want to make this like something that Gets supper boosted and makes Cybran OP, but I do think their Combat ACU should be an alternative to Sera mid-to-late game. Getting less viable in the late as Omni becomes more present. Not about widening the window too wide to make it op, just enough to make it a little more usable.

[Lieutenant Lich]

Stop fucking with balance, cloak is fine where it is. Just like billy, you have to know when to use it. And by late t3, no ACU should ever be on the battlefield since it's extremely easy to overestimate your strength and die without honor.

[FtXCommando]

"Stop fucking with balance"

I take that this is your last post in the balance forums or that you're a massive hypocrite?