Navy vs Air

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Navy vs Air

Postby Cyborg16 » 25 Jun 2017, 14:27

(Note: stats are pulled from http://direct.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/ — I don't know if this is accurate.)

Air usually plays a support role in the game:
  • Assassinate key targets (esp. with strat bomber)
  • Harass vulnerable targets (mexes, engineers)
  • Stop land attacks with inadequate AA
  • Provide intel
  • Air superiority
In particular, air units are highly mobile, and not usually effective taking on
significant ground-based AA.

But navy seems to have problems vs air:
  • Ships are more expensive, so there are fewer, more valuable targets
  • Cruisers (besides Aeon) are multi-talent units, and expensive for just AA
  • Cruisers cost 12.5 times the mass of mobile flak and 5 times the cost of static flak,
    and have no splash damage (except Seraphim). (How many T2 gunships does it
    take to beat two cruisers? *Far* less than needed vs 25 mobile flak!)
  • Cruisers are more than double the cost of equivalent T3 static AA
  • Cruisers have much less HP than destroyers to emphasise that they are special purpose units;
    this hurts them vs air (in some cases, one shot strat bomber targets)
In particular, defending against gunships with ships is difficult, and cruisers are
relatively weak targets for strategic and torpedo bombers. Land armies don't
seem to have the same problem in that a relatively small fraction of the cost
can be spent on AA to achieve enough protection that engagement with similar
tech level and cost air units is not cost effective.

So, I would suggest:
  • Give all cruisers splash damage, via primary or secondary weapons
  • Increase HP in line with destroyers (approx double)
  • Remove cybran cruiser's deck gun (replace with flak cannon?). Reason being,
    it should not be able to equal a destroyer, which it almost would with an HP boost.
  • Do frigates & the Aeon T1 AA boat also need better AA?
  • Keep torp bombers as-is; they would still be dangerous vs ships, but often as suicide attacks

I realise that this would decrease the importance of air-superiority on maps like Setons,
but it certainly wouldn't eliminate the need for air: torp-bombing ships would remain a
viable option to soften an enemy fleet during a naval engagement, and of course there's
still mex harassment, land drops, intel, nukes, etc.

On a side note, navy is mass-heavy. T3 air is energy-intensive, but lower tier air is not so much.
Making air generally very energy-intensive (2-4 times E cost in many cases) would make it harder
for non-air players to switch to air production, making air a more specialised role. But this would
have many balance implications for air vs land, so is a bit beyond scope here.

Side notes:
  • Why is T2 mobile flak approx 1/3 cost of static flak, for the same capabilities?
    (Yes, mobile version has 1000 HP vs approx 2500 for static; that's not important enough
    for the cost difference.)
  • Why does Aeon static flak have half damage output of all others?
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Re: Navy vs Air

Postby PhilipJFry » 25 Jun 2017, 14:59

Cruiser are in a nice spot at the moment i don't see a reason to buff them.
Pretty sure the old DB has the aeon static flak rate of fire wrong.
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Re: Navy vs Air

Postby Cyborg16 » 25 Jun 2017, 15:17

I'll do some tests later to see how many T2 gunships it takes to kill a cruiser. But IMO gunships should not be even vaguely cost-effective vs cruisers, the same as they're not vs mobile flak.
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Re: Navy vs Air

Postby MayorDamage » 25 Jun 2017, 15:24

if navy was that bad vs air why do setons players not build air instead of navy?
you prbl just are doing it wrong...
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Re: Navy vs Air

Postby biass » 25 Jun 2017, 15:36

Cruisers are more equivalent to SAMS then they are flak, minus the sera one because muh t2

I don't think they need buffing at all
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Re: Navy vs Air

Postby Plasma_Wolf » 25 Jun 2017, 16:22

Cruisers are mobile, they have a high radar and sonar range. The firing cycle of especially the Aeon cruiser is insanely good. They are great area denial ships and air can't do that at any point. The closest air unit that can perform area denial is the gunship and that's still very costly.

Cruisers are the primary AA unit on navy but Torpedo Bombers and (gunships in a way too) are a direct counter to that. In a test, I've had mixed results with cruisers vs gunships. The 8 gunships vs a cruiser: Aeon kills them all, Cybran dies with 4 left. Seraphim dies with some left (this can't be right because of flak), UEF dies with 7 left (this definitely can't be right). For torpedo bombers you always need at least 5 to kill the cruiser (which is 60% of the cost and that's pretty ok for a direct counter)

Flak is designed to kill gunships. They've got AoE and a good damage value. Gunships are clumped together so they die to flak quickly. Gunships don't have to make passes across the enemy fleet to do damage. Static flak has higher range than mobile flak and does more damage, with a larger AoE than mobile flak. That's why it's more expensive.

In all cases, you've got an entire fleet vs an entire fleet. If you decide to bring air units in at this point, you have to target all cruisers first, or they will wreck all of your air before you've taken out so much as three frigates. And, you can add your own support units to make the fleet way stronger. Add a UEF shield boat or a Cybran stealth boat, they will make it harder for your opponent to find them or fight them. A bunch of cruisers with a bunch of shield boats can't be killed by equal mass in air.

Cruisers also get loads of veterancy against air due to T1 or T2 fighters. So, you can't accompany your T2 torpedo bombers until they've dealt with all of the cruisers. While your opponent can add his fighters to help his cruisers.

Any one of the three suggestions for cruisers would make them ridiculously OP, let alone all three. Aeon T1 navy has weak AA (the shard may have ok AA but it's an extra unit you have to build while others can just spam frigates), but they've got T2 fighters and their cruisers are by far the best AA weapons, so that's to make up for it. As Aeon you need Air control at the T1 stage because of both navy and land units and at T2 you're definitely going to keep it.
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Re: Navy vs Air

Postby zeroAPM » 25 Jun 2017, 17:58

BUILD
MORE
AIR
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Re: Navy vs Air

Postby Cyborg16 » 25 Jun 2017, 18:55

Lol, yeah, navy needs air support...

Anyway, I did some tests on cruisers vs gunships.

Methodology: spawn 1 enemy cruiser, spawn # of T2 UEF gunships out of range, tell gunships to attack, measure HP remaining on cruiser. Clean-up and repeat.

Results: quite variable. All cruisers other than Cybran could do splash damage to bunched gunships, but only the Seraphim one did a lot. The Seraphim one starts firing its splash-damage weapon outside of effective range (first ~2 shots miss). There are some huge variances and some small variances in the outcomes; I'm not really sure why. All tests were repeated (this is what the commas are).

Cybran cruiser (base HP 3000):
  • 5 gunships: 440, 460, 1240
  • 6 gunships: 0, 0

UEF cruiser (base HP 2500):
  • 5 gunships: 0, 1520, 1650
  • 6 gunships: 700, 1270, 1300
  • 7 gunships: 0, 430, 738

Aeon cruiser (base HP 3250):
  • 5 gunships: 2450
  • 6 gunships: 2300
  • 7 gunships: 790, 1100, 1300, 1800
  • 8 gunships: 0, 700, 1050
  • 9 gunships: 0

Seraphim cruiser (base HP 2400):
  • 5 gunships: 1260, 1660, 2100, 2245
  • 6 gunships: 1260, 1460, 1580
  • 7 gunships: 1480, 1486, 1680
  • 8 gunships: 0, 0, 588, 803, 2867
  • 9 gunships: 0, 0, 727, 1146
  • 10 gunships: 48, 107, 627
  • 14 gunships: 0, 0

Thoughts: Seraphim cruisers are madly good relative to others. Cybran's is crap; partly this is because the micro missiles are so slow (some fire at essentially dead targets).

You get 8.33 gunships for the mass of one cruiser, or 3.75 in terms of energy. So in reply to MayorDamage, yes, you probably could just build air vs navy, so long as you're not vs Seraphim, and so long as the enemy air player doesn't step in.
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Re: Navy vs Air

Postby Mephi » 25 Jun 2017, 19:04

single cruisers are no problem but they get stronger if the mass values get higher
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Re: Navy vs Air

Postby Turinturambar » 25 Jun 2017, 19:06

did you kite with the cruisers?
dont Forget all non aeon will have frigs+ destros for additional aa around.(im mostly thinking about 1v1 situations atm and there you will likely have a lot of frigs+destros and only some cruisers)
also you can camp your Navy with a small airforce (small than half of your opponents (especially if you are sera) andyour Opponent will cant engage it cost efficiently eith his own air, while if he tries to use gs/torps those can get cleaned up by the small airforce pretty fast
most importend if you dont clean up the entire Navy (including frigs etc) your Opponent will still have controlll over the area and thereby ALL the reclaim. with that in mind he can afford to fight rather cost inefficiently.
so id say current cruiserbalance is ok only Thing im not sure about is aeon aa boats but thats a different story
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