Cybran desperately needs something for floaty crap

[RocketRooster]

I'm throwing this out there in the hopes that it will generate discussion, and if I'm wrong about it, to learn something.

On maps like high noon, Aeon and Sera are able to put you under pressure from the get go. Masses of floating T1 spam can attack you from any angle and you are forced to (ineffectually) invest in PD and your own land units, which play no further part in the game. Sure, frigate spam is cheap but you can't outspam T1 land and the enemy units can retreat to land for safety, nullifying your frigate investment. Since that land will usually be your side of the map, the threat is not eliminated in the least, you might not have built frigates at all.

Yes, cybran have jesters which work well against paper T1 hovercrap, but you need air superiority for it to not be an expensive counter. And floating mobile AA makes it a non-proposition. UEF sit with a similar problem but at least their T2 PD is an effective counter and it doesn't suffer from the curse of fluffiness.

The situation is even worse with maps like CookieNoob's Assdistressa or whatever it's called. Winning your aquatic part of the map with frigate spam is once again expensive and its utility is limited since you can't use those frigates elsewhere. To defend against UEF T2 hovercrap, you have to have a tonne of PD, and destroyers are the only way to defend against incursions and still have that mass investment useful on the other side of the map. Even then it's quite easy to be outspammed and since the passage of water is narrow, your HQ shipyard is very vulnerable.

The Wagner is supposed to be the fluffy counterpart of floating T2, but while it is a counterpart, it isn't a counter. They are essentially immune to each other but at least the enemy has the advantage of being able to use torpedoes to defend. Cybran does not have that ability. While they are protected from land based defense, hovering engies are immune from their attacks and keeping a shipyard alive is a piece of cake.

There is a gaping hole in the Cybran lineup and while I'm not complaining about overall balance, they are at a big disadvantage on close-in maps where water is part of the strategic, ahem, landscape. Playing as Cybran on those maps is an exercise in tooth enamel preservation.

PS while I'm shamelessly making demands, can we have longer thread titles please? Thanks.

[nine2]

dude just build two frigates early on. They have radar and kill floaty crap

[RocketRooster]

That doesn't solve the problem of the frigates' investment being confined to that role for the rest of the game. On high noon it's less of a problem since you can get to the enemy's naval production with them - but what about maps where that is not the case? They are effectively turned into static PD that can't go anywhere.

[nine2]

you don't need to solve that problem. You need to kill floaty crap.

just dont build 1000x frigates and there's not a big problem

[Plasma_Wolf]

A couple of frigates is usually enough. T1 hover is weaker than T1 frigates but you have to pay attention to them. If you allow 20 auroras close to a frigate then the frigate will die.

Alternatively: get air superiority and use bombers (not jesters). By the time your opponent is able to include hover flak, you should have something else. For land, hoplite spam always works against hover and you can build some transports to carry them to the other island.

If you have good naval control it's a good idea to go to T2 there and build a destroyer. High range and a high RoF, that hover stuff won't stand a chance and if they do get too close, you still have some frigates.

I'm not sure about wagers against hover. They have a low RoF high damage shot and less range than the aurora. But on High noon they're excellent for Base raiding. They tend to hit the enemy T1 PD all the time and not the walls like any other tank. Also they're fast units so if hover stuff comes in you can quickly go somewhere else.

That being said, high noon is a horrible map that shouldn't be played in 1v1 games. Maybe it's better as 2v2 but I don't know. For me it's not because of the hover spam though. I've always been able to deal with that.

[keyser]

That doesn't solve the problem of the frigates' investment being confined to that role for the rest of the game. On high noon it's less of a problem since you can get to the enemy's naval production with them - but what about maps where that is not the case? They are effectively turned into static PD that can't go anywhere.

which map?

[RocketRooster]

Cookienoob's one. Adastrea whatsisname.

Had a team game with Chosen on the opposing side. Now, that probably says a lot but I was rushing destroyers as fast as possible and his Riptides ripped me a new one. I was bottom left corner and he came cruising down from left mid with that rubbish. His comment at the time was "T2 navy is overrated". To which I replied "I don't have nice floaty cheese". I don't think frigate spam would have helped me at all either. Cybran has nothing except air and navy that is able to contest and defend that territory at any tech tier, and that sort of set the stage for this thread.

Of course, on maps with more open water and maneuvre it's rarely a problem, but this particular map highlights the Cybran deficiency in this area of close-in water defense in stark relief.

[This_Guy]

Mass frig are better for dealing with floaty tanks than destroyers. Mass for mass frig will still win

[RocketRooster]

Even if, for the sake of argument, you are correct (and I'm not saying you aren't) - it still creates the situation where you will have invested a lot into navy that cannot be used elsewhere (on this particular map, at least).

The overriding thrust is that with floaty stuff, you can travel anywhere with it and it isn't made obsolete by changing lines of control. In the Cybran case, that's sort of ironic that navy needs to get roped in a defensive role against what amounts to land spam. The other factions have good solutions (ie, decent T2 PD), with Cybran you only have one way to contest unless you can win air. It's kinda a bridge too far in terms of finesse especially when you consider that T1 frigate spam ends up as glorified PD whereas Cybran are not supposed to be defensive, but the other factions are out-assaulting them in the amphibious role.

[biass]

frigates are perfectly fine at raiding outer mexes and providing aa until you can make t2 navy or something else on high noon air can also win you the game if you know how to do it

adrastrea or whatever im not gonna comment but from looking at general map layout good luck lmao