Cybran desperately needs something for floaty crap

[RocketRooster]

I've never asked for a hover unit, Lich. Not once. As far as I'm concerned, the Cybran ambhibious assault is well enough served by Wagners and Salems. My concern is the lack of tools from the same battle sphere to deal with enemy amphibious units, especially the immunity of hover units from torpedoes. There's too much rock paper scissors going on.

The task set for the opposing player is simple - deny control of air and navy and the way is open for floating land spam. By doing so you've forced the Cybran player to turtle and it's GG. There is no way for the Cybran player to recontest navy except by winning air first and then beating back enemy navy through air power alone at enormous cost, and it's GG anyway.

Yes - I understand that a good player will attempt to avoid this weakness but it leads to one-dimensional strategy, something that is decidedly /unfluffy/ for tricksy sneaksy Cybran.

[RocketRooster]

Biass, resorting to monosyllabic insults like noob and troll don't offer much incentive to take you seriously in the least. At best, you come across as snide and rude. You ought to set a higher standard of behaviour for yourself as a moderator.

I think you seriously underestimate Xerxes' approach. It's about mastering one aspect of the game at a time. I have spamming down pretty well and not only a) has it made me, a raw recruit, competitive at ladder, more importantly, b) it kept interest and fun alive when victory was hard to come by.

Anyway, all of that is off topic. I'm off to BUILD_MORE_MANTIS.

[biass]

are you actually retarded
i even said im not a moderator, did you even read what i said?

The task set for the opposing player is simple - deny control of air and navy and the way is open for floating land spam. By doing so you've forced the Cybran player to turtle and it's GG. There is no way for the Cybran player to recontest navy except by winning air first and then beating back enemy navy through air power alone at enormous cost, and it's GG anyway.

"my opponent managed to win air, win navy, and then win land in the 1st 3 minutes of the game" my son you have bigger issues then faction balance

i legit give up, i already assumed you were not reading what i was writing before but jesus fn christ

[RocketRooster]

I stopped reading after noob troll. All right, you're not a mod.

Thank god.

My charge still stands. Anyway, I need moar mantis.

[Ars Nova]

I must admit that don't think I've learned much

To summarize the issue at hand, Cybran has always been at a disadvantage on maps like High Noon because they don't have any hover units. UEF also had it bad because they were stuck on their side of the map for all of T1. Sera and Aeon could play a mixed game, and typically dominated because they simply had more options. The main compensation provided to Cybran was the Jester, which tended to be a big factor for those maps back when they were a part of the ladder. UEF generally had to focus on their navy and didn't have much else.

To this day, Riptides are still unpopular, but it's because UEF following the naval pathway will generally prefer to stay on the naval pathway, so they don't really switch to hover spam on maps where this comes up - they're already dedicated to navy, and there are very few maps where Governers can't reach an important quantity of targets. A Cybran who goes with the air pathway will eventually be shut down by flak and shields, so it's a bit of a dead end and can be worse than if you went full navy instead. That means that if you started off trying to use Jesters as leverage, you need to transition. By T2, it can be a bit late to move into naval play. The enemy can build subs, and just a few of them will keep you from building your factory. Of course, Wagner spam isn't going to be an easy move either.

Years ago, they put some serious thought into balancing Wagners so that they'd have some sort of impact on naval play, but the problem they ran into is that depth charges and torpedos take a long time to reach their target and there's an issue of overkill. A bunch of subs or torpedo defenses often shoot all their rounds at a single target, sink it, reload, then fire at another single target. It's very inefficient on top of being slow. Having tens of submersible units is really a nightmare situation for units that can attack submersibles, so if the Wagner were able to threaten enemy navy at all, they'd dominate by a drawback of the game mechanics. You'd have forty Wagners, and by the time the enemy overkills the first one, the Wagners have overkilled a destroyer. It just doesn't work.

You can help negate this by split-attacking, but it's more micro intense and still too demanding. Players unfamiliar with split-attacking won't intuitively know they can do it, either.

So what they finally settled on was making the Wagner a normal tank, pretty much. If nothing has changed since then, the Wagner should trade sort of equally with the Rhino and you could theoretically build either, but the Rhino doesn't overkill so it's ultimately more efficient and more preferred. That means that when Wagners pop up on the shore, they're not some fragile unit like the Blaze or the Riptide, they're a real tank. It's not necessarily a game winner, but for sure, if they surprise a player it's going to be a massacre. That's good for Cybran. What isn't good about it is that the Wagner fails to fill the role all the other amphibious tanks provide - amphibious support. They're good on land, but garbage in the water. You can't use them to chase off enemy boats or to take down a relatively fresh naval factory. They fill the same role the Rhino does plus their ability to drive through water.

So without changing the Wagner into a hover unit, there's not much that can be done to provide the Cybran with a similar role to what hover units provide. Fortunately, maps that strictly benefit hover factions above all others have been eliminated from the ladder, but as you've noticed, free play with friends means you'll occasionally be on those maps and you'll be stuck in the same situation as the UEF. Just like them, you have to build navy. Unlike them, you won't have the range of the Governor nor the air-blocking joy of the Bulwark. Instead you have destroyers that crawl up on land, which is funnier but a whole lot more risky.

So the short of it is, on virtually any map with water on it, Cybran should usually plan to get into the water and not be fooled into thinking that Jesters or Wagners are going to save the day. They won't. Jesters can delay the game to T2 by covering your own area, but a competent player will scout you and generally prepare air defense on their side of things. You also won't be able to delay an enemy navy by spamming amphibious land units, so if you're not already in the water by T2 it's extremely unlikely the other player will let you start. Better to just be there in the first place and work around the limitation.

It's always been that way. They've thought about trying to change it, but nothing was viable, and this is one of these things that you really have to look at and say, you know, it actually is a faction diversity thing. It's the price we're paying for a submersible tank. I personally think it's not the best trade since an undefended base is usually going to get sacked whether it's Wagners or Blazes showing up, but Wagners do have the edge by being sneakier and harder to kill en route, and luckily it doesn't come up that much anyway.

[Turinturambar]

1st of all Building a few frigates to deal with hover is about never a waste. since they:
-can raid (just try it e.g. on high noon you can even kill some of the enemies core mexes in his base)
-provide mobile!!! Radar (just that alone makes them incredebly valuable)
-provide aa (it is not a lot but it can still force your enemy to move his intercepros away since he cannot just circle over the frigates for a few minutes)
2nd if you dislike Navy you can use air to kill hover (dont use the Argument you Need aircontroll to deal with hover same Counts for Navy, you cant defend Navy vs hover if your enemy has the place allredy secured with his own Navy)
3rd f you have proper Intel you can drop landunits(including acu) to deal with hover
4th the Thing that should Limit you the most is "THE META" e.g. in a high noon game you cannot do anything but airspam for at least the first 10-15 min or you will loose the game (which ofc implies that both Players know how to Play and can Play that style, so they would a skill of 2.1-2.3k+ with that playstyle) in that view cyb not having own hover is litterally irrelevant since, to stick with the example after the early game they have to build Navy or they will loose. balancing the game on Players who dont know how to Play etc is a Logical no go

I personally think it's not the best trade since an undefended base is usually going to get sacked whether it's Wagners or Blazes showing up

please tell me you are not serious.......



PS: if you want to know how to get back Navy after a total crush and win your lane with wagners, ask feather.

[AdmiralZeech]

It's ok to have a "strategic hole".
It's ok for a faction to have fewer ways to deal with a situation than other factions, as long as they have at least one.
It's ok to be forced to do certain things on certain maps.

It's not ok for a faction to insta-lose on a particular map because they have no way of dealing with a common strategy.
It's not ok for a faction to lose more often overall, because they have less options than other factions.

Given that the last two aren't currently occurring, using the top three as reasons why Cybran needs to be changed, is not sufficient.

[ZeRen]

as a Cyb players I must say that Cyb with no hover is ok, no problem there, bigger problem is when Cyb is pushed out of water, then it is GG

Cybran has no tool to get back to water(maybe air, but try it when your air player lose air)

btw. there is worse gap then "cyb no hover" , and that is "Cyb´s ACU no def upgrade"

[Zeldafanboy]

Cybran has great T1 and T2 navy. It sucks that you have to invest the mass on certain maps, but once you are invested it's not hard to win navy.

The real issue with Cybran is the Firebeetle nerf-- they're practically useless now ;_; Please bring back my fun snipes. I can deal with the Cerberus being shit and having no hover but I need my beetles.

[RocketRooster]

I want to thank everyone for their input so far - it's been an enjoyable read and I hope more people weigh in.

Top of the agenda: this thread has put me in the mood for some faffy fightin' and I can't wait for tomorrow evening's entertainment.

Friday - my second favourite F-word!