Cybran desperately needs something for floaty crap

[Ars Nova]

As a rule, if you're playing Cybran and there's water on the map, you need to build a navy. Use your scouting to make sure you don't over-invest, but if for some reason you don't already have a competent navy then it's a weak spot you can't compensate for. You can't build amphibious units to chase boats off while you establish your own counter-navy. You can't chase hover units with your own factory units.

Just build a navy. You have to. Do it ESPECIALLY if the opponent plays UEF, because there is no other real Cybran counter to Governors beneath a Bulwark. If they build those two boats and you don't have boats of your own, make your final push, and if you don't win then just GG and cntrl-k. The tac missile spam will otherwise carve away your base piece by piece and there's nothing you can do because TMDs get overwhelmed and the cost of air-spamming a Bulwark/Governor combo to death is astronomical.

Cybran is at a disadvantage on mixed maps with water. Having a navy isn't optional for you like it can be for other factions. It's been this way for a long time now and people generally don't acknowledge it as a problem in the grand scheme - or if they do, they don't acknowledge it as a thing that needs thinking about because "Cybran is already too good". It's similar to the problem of how Cybran air factories are slower to produce engineers. It generally pigeonholes Cybran into going land factory first every game, but most players give it a pass even though it's a bit bizarre and the reasoning for it could be debated.

[RocketRooster]

So what you're telling me seems to boil down to that Cybran are forced to invest in an additional factory, which is vulnerable since it is at the outskirts of your position and has to self-defend via the boats it builds. And against land spam of all things even if you don't take enemy navy into account.

To place it into perspective, I think the shitstorm that would unfold if any faction were forced to build an air factory to counter land spam would be of immense proportions.

[IceDreamer]

So what you're telling me seems to boil down to that Cybran are forced to invest in an additional factory, which is vulnerable since it is at the outskirts of your position and has to self-defend via the boats it builds. And against land spam of all things even if you don't take enemy navy into account.

To place it into perspective, I think the shitstorm that would unfold if any faction were forced to build an air factory to counter land spam would be of immense proportions.

Cybran more than makes up for it in other arenas. More than. They don't need this. They certainly don't desperately need it.

It is part of the game's factional diversity: Yes, Cybrans suffer from floaty floaty naughty naughty. They also have Mantis, and other factions have to deal with Mantis runbys. I suppose everyone needs something to counter that, too?

[Morax]

If you're not making any Navy already on that map you are going to have issues, regardless.

[FtXCommando]

Your suggestion leads to the slipper slope where the game loses all diversity. Give each faction a t1 hover tank, a fast t1 raid tank, a big hp tank, etc etc

You deal with the factional advantage of other factions by minimizing their advantage and pushing your advantage. Some maps have a bias towards certain factions because of their map design, but that's not a problem with the factions. It's the job of a map creator to create a map where factions should be able to reasonably fight one another.

Wagners are arguably way more annoying than other t2 floating tanks precisely because of their ability. You put 2 wagners in the water near loki and you deny the mexes near the water for your opponent unless they're willing to invest eco into a pd or torpedo bombers to deal with it. All the maps that have tiny ponds of water or have coastal mexes are great for wagners.

[Ars Nova]

Cybran more than makes up for it in other arenas. More than. They don't need this. They certainly don't desperately need it.

I have seen these debate on the balance forum before, and this is an annoying perspective. Cybran do need an amphibious attack option, at least as far as you can say a faction needs amphibious attackers. The Wagner and Brick are both ineffectual against water-based threats, so they're not even useful in in a pinch. If Cybran loses their naval factory, they're done, there's no getting back in the water even if the economy exists to spam land units in desperation nor if there's not much room for ship micro. Cyrban just totally lacks a strategic ability the other factions have.

But nobody has ever figured out how to balance the Wagner torpedo, because combat with submersible units involves a lot of specialized, slow moving projectiles. If Wagners could do anything to support a naval push, they'd overwhelm a normal navy because there'd be tons of them and not much way to deal with it. Currently the only thing they can do is distract torpedo defense. Otherwise they're functionally similar to a Rhino, but more fragile, with a higher alpha, and the ability to pass through water.

Having zero amphibious option doesn't actually balance out the Mantis or anything it does. It's silly to even make that argument. It's unrelated, and by that logic the Mantis being good could be an excuse to justify removing the T3 bomber from Cybran's arsenal even though air and land occupy different roles and different tiers entirely. The Mantis is not a magic bullet that justifies every shortchange the Cybran might be facing. The Mantis doesn't justify tickle turrets, or the poor shields, or the lack of offensive mid-game options for the ACU - those things are in the game because of other factors. And if you really have a problem with the Mantis to such a degree that you figure you need the Cybran to suffer in unrelated ways to make up for it, then balance the Mantis for goodness sake. Your answer to the Mantis is your equivalent land units, your ACU, your bombers, your radar, your scouts planes, and your PDs.

If you can think of a balance reason to not have amphibious attackers for the Cybran, that's one thing. But "lol Mantis" is not a reason. I'm pretty sure it's always been about the fact that nobody wants to deal with Cybran plunging three dozen submarines into the water out of nowhere, and they don't want Cybran to have hover units because faction diversity. Hands tied.

Bottom Line
If you play Cybran and you don't build navy on a map where navy is an option, you are gambling. It's been this way for a long time. Nobody has been able to figure out how to balance the Wagner so it can attack enemy navy and not be OP. "lol just build matnises".

[nine2]

It's ok for Cybran to have a weakness in an area.

[FtXCommando]

"If you play Cybran and don't take advantage of the best t1 frigate in the game, then you risk the possibility of being countered and losing. Please change this at once."

(Also if possible let us keep the awesome wagner ability to flat out deny mexes pls)

[Farmsletje]

If Cybran loses their naval factory, they're done, there's no getting back in the water even if the economy exists to spam land units in desperation

Excluding sentons, can you name another maps were cybran has this problem?

[RocketRooster]

If Cybran loses their naval factory, they're done, there's no getting back in the water even if the economy exists to spam land units in desperation

Excluding sentons, can you name another maps were cybran has this problem?

I think the point that Ars is making is that if you've lost your means of naval production, you have no reasonable means of chasing away enemy ships in order to get back into the water in a pinch. Other factions have hover tanks and hover arty which can do the job in an emergency. Cybran are left with air - which requires a further obstacle to be surmounted: air supremacy. Riptides et al don't give a fart about that.

In other words, it's all maps.

Yes, the Cybran ACU has a lovely torpedo upgrade which isn't too expensive, but it's of no use against hovering turds. It's an interplay of subtleties that makes it a hopeless situation. It's not necessarily the lack of surface amphibious units - it's how hover rocks the torpedo scissors.