Balance patch 3684 Feedback Thread

[biass]

I always love it how a balance discussion turns into people trying to tell one or two black sheep the basics because they come in and say everything wrong

Also find it funny why everyone is opposing the flak change, it was a long suggested suggestion by blackheart as a way to stop the absolute cancerterror that was strat rushing every game (with ras, but now that is gone...)

[Iszh]

The flak change influences on t1 t2 air as well but in a good way. Before it was completely useless now it is able to stop a t2 bomber and even a t1 bomber faster than a t1 gun. Because before this change t1 aa gun was better against single units and nobody could explain why this has been for all the years like this. Now it is a clear thing t3>t2>t1 static aa guns. Zock was thinking for some time to exchange the weapons and make sam t2 and t3 will be the flak guns since they have bigger splash. The only thing which is better at sam now is the range. If you spam static t2 aa guns they should be really better now than sams against any tech level of air. Reason is that they have more splash and of course they cant hit single asf but all other planes they can hit. If a huge asf cloud will fly over them they reach the same dps like sam but with big splash in the big cloud of asf. AND they reach the same dps for mass cost but big splash. I still think the change was needed and is fine. I Like to see soon some t2 static aa guns

[Evildrew]

I dont see why you noobs think you should be able to counter everything after you have been outplayed. You are like "oh, he made a fast strat and i didnt know because i didnt scout, i eco'ed, so now i have 2 x his mass income but dont have t3 to defend it. There is nothing wrong with my standard build which he took apart with a well crafted strategy from studying my weakness, it is clearly a problem that t1&t2 cant hit strats very well." This is why people play turtle maps like dual crap, where early aggression is a mass donation and cannot work out. Everyone gets to make a template build and should be ok and we flip a coin at 45 mins to see who wins.

[JaggedAppliance]

Purged some useless stuff from the thread, keep your personal spats in aeolus please.

[JaggedAppliance]

The flak change influences on t1 t2 air as well but in a good way. Before it was completely useless now it is able to stop a t2 bomber and even a t1 bomber faster than a t1 gun. Because before this change t1 aa gun was better against single units and nobody could explain why this has been for all the years like this. Now it is a clear thing t3>t2>t1 static aa guns. Zock was thinking for some time to exchange the weapons and make sam t2 and t3 will be the flak guns since they have bigger splash. The only thing which is better at sam now is the range. If you spam static t2 aa guns they should be really better now than sams against any tech level of air. Reason is that they have more splash and of course they cant hit single asf but all other planes they can hit. If a huge asf cloud will fly over them they reach the same dps like sam but with big splash in the big cloud of asf. AND they reach the same dps for mass cost but big splash. I still think the change was needed and is fine. I Like to see soon some t2 static aa guns

I'll be looking carefully to make sure they aren't too good.

[Evildrew]

I remember a time long ago when t1 aa couldnt hit t1 scouts which flew past just inside the range. That changed at some point when t1 aa was buffed to fire faster projectiles i believe so it could hit t3 planes better. Before they would only track on to hit t3 planes when those flew in a straight line for a little time and would miss if it turned. I miss those days. The aa on frigates still shoot like i described the previous t1 aa.
I was always a fan of the principle:
T1 aa kills t1 air, weak vs t2, very weak vs t3
T2 aa kills t2 air and destroys t1, weak vs t3
T3 aa kills t3 air and destroys t2, weak vs t1
What most people dont consider when they think strat rush is OP is that it is cheaper to counter it and that killing it cost efficiently on t2 tech and big eco advantage leads to a greater advantage because of the wreck reclaim.
This is why you should lose if the other guy makes a strat and you simcity without scouting, when his strat drops in your base while he has 1/2 the mass income you can get by not making t3 airfactory and t3 pgen or ras.
In my opinion t2 flak has too much dps for the cost, it is impossible to make and equivalent force of t1 and t2 air to ground planes assisting land units that can be effective. If you dont reduce dps or increase cost as trade off for higher projectile speed and faster turret turnrate you will affect the t2 land/ air balance to be more imbalanced.
Actually if you increase projectile speed you essentially are increasing the real range at which you can hit a plane too. Think of that as well please.

[JaggedAppliance]

I remember a time long ago when t1 aa couldnt hit t1 scouts which flew past just inside the range. That changed at some point when t1 aa was buffed to fire faster projectiles i believe so it could hit t3 planes better. Before they would only track on to hit t3 planes when those flew in a straight line for a little time and would miss if it turned. I miss those days. The aa on frigates still shoot like i described the previous t1 aa.
I was always a fan of the principle:
T1 aa kills t1 air, weak vs t2, very weak vs t3
T2 aa kills t2 air and destroys t1, weak vs t3
T3 aa kills t3 air and destroys t2, weak vs t1
What most people dont consider when they think strat rush is OP is that it is cheaper to counter it and that killing it cost efficiently on t2 tech and big eco advantage leads to a greater advantage because of the wreck reclaim.
This is why you should lose if the other guy makes a strat and you simcity without scouting, when his strat drops in your base while he has 1/2 the mass income you can get by not making t3 airfactory and t3 pgen or ras.
In my opinion t2 flak has too much dps for the cost, it is impossible to make and equivalent force of t1 and t2 air to ground planes assisting land units that can be effective. If you dont reduce dps or increase cost as trade off for higher projectile speed and faster turret turnrate you will affect the t2 land/ air balance to be more imbalanced.
Actually if you increase projectile speed you essentially are increasing the real range at which you can hit a plane too. Think of that as well please.

The effective dps per mass of static flak vs t3 air is lower than sams because it doesn't hit all of its shots. Static flak can also be killed in one pass by a strat bomber. It's important to remember we're buffing a unit that was almost never built. Thanks for the feedback, I will keep your points in mind.

[Evildrew]

You are right, i have melted countless noobs with t1 bombers who would have lived had they built t2 flak. I think it was as you say "almost never built" because people maybe thought t3 sams were better or something. The distinction of properties across the tech tree is well done. Linear thinking is the problem, not balance
Its the same with scouts, people dont build them because they dont want to fall behind vs their opposite on eco or asf, doesnt mean the scout planes are to blame...

[Farmsletje]

The reason why people barely build stationary flak is because mobile flak is so much better/cheaper.

[Iszh]

I also think this change wont do lots of real change in game, it simply enables new options. Thats a nice way of balance to "revive" some units.