Balance patch 3684 Feedback Thread

Moderator: JaggedAppliance

Re: Balance patch 3684 Feedback Thread

Postby keyser » 29 May 2017, 21:06

you can very accurately target any building you want (a T1 pgen if need be) with the ctrl k of a sat. there is no randomness.
Zockyzock:
VoR is the clan of upcoming top players now
keyser
Councillor - Game
 
Posts: 1870
Joined: 17 May 2013, 14:27
Has liked: 424 times
Been liked: 540 times
FAF User Name: keyser

Re: Balance patch 3684 Feedback Thread

Postby Plasma_Wolf » 29 May 2017, 21:10

Weird, there was randomness introduced shortly after the game was released.

Anyway, I just tested it and the things drop straight down on the targets now. Maybe I made a mistake when I tested it a long time ago. The sat could still have moved a little bit and that little bit becomes enough to miss when the fall down to the ground is done.

I also didn't consider the fact that satellites could be built directly from the novax centre for 5k mass now. The initial cost of the novax is 28k but after that it's 5k per satellite. With the old 3k damage, you'd need 2 to kill a nuke launcher. 56k initially and after that 5k each time you do it. The SML is 15k, so if you do it 5 times then the novax crash strategy is cheaper.

Now I said I didn't consider it but after consideration, with the 3k damage it's already elaborate and annoying.

This may be more of an issue if we're targeting SMDs and launching nukes afterwards. Not sure how effective it is when you're using 2 novax sats to kill a series of SMDs (your enemy always has more than one), but I think that the novax kill has more to do with the time spent building anti-nukes that are now dead, than with the mass spent on the SMD and the anti-nukes.

If we're going to 4 novax satellites to kill multiple SMDs (if the damage was left at 3k), then I think you'd be looking to break shields in the old fashioned way and then killing stuff underneath...

As conclusion, I think the original 3k was ok. Alternatively to decreasing the death damage of the novax for the survivability of the SMD (I really can't think of other targets to kill by self-destructing novaxes), maybe we should have doubled the SMD HP instead? Is that going to kill all snipes by strat bombers (I think not, I can't remember the last snipe I've seen where a 3800HP building died and would've lived if it were a 7600HP building).
User avatar
Plasma_Wolf
Supreme Commander
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: 20 Oct 2011, 11:28
Has liked: 23 times
Been liked: 91 times
FAF User Name: Plasma_Wolf

Re: Balance patch 3684 Feedback Thread

Postby Evildrew » 30 May 2017, 13:11

I also dont like these mml changes. The reason cybran mml was designed so much better is because it balances out over the entire range of units. Cybran have inaccurate t1&t3 mobile arty. The t1 arty is of course the weakest of all races, low aoe means you have to be lucky to get a stun as well which has to be weighed. Cybran cant hold a turtle position because of weak pd and weak shield. Games are not balanced by looking at the same class and type of unit being equal with optical differences across races in how they operate. Games are balanced by rating units and trying to have the sum of each race be close to each other. T1 might be a luttle weaker for race A while race B is weaker on T2, this creates back and forth action.
On some maps of course with different design some units attributes may weigh more but this cannot be helped.

Something to really look at to make the game more interesting is to bring underused units into play.
F.ex. In supcom vanilla uef cruisers had an homing missile with slow recharge which made them competitive with destroyers. It made tmd on boats really useful. It matched uef cruiser with cybran cruiser dps. The issue with this tml was the same we have with nuke sub tml. It gets countered by tmd too easy because of slow firing rate and expensive to scale, basically too cheap to counter. So with low range uef destroyer range you dont have base destroying equipment until t3 battleship roll out. So i do like uef cruiser missiles that shoot in 4s and kill tmd but i also liked the homing missile for which tmd on boats was made. There could be a switch like sniper bots have for the 2.
But now back to nuke subs. I would like them cheaper so they get built more for the onbaord tactical missile than solely for the nuke. T3 navy yards got more expensive in some balance patch while boats still cost the same meaning that to get a nukesub loaded costs even more while nuke launcher remained unchanged and became even more viable as option despite pgen adjacency.
Could a 2 hp tml from nuke subs or larger aoe (mini billy) be something interesting or faster reload time or lower cost subs be an improvement, or an option to fire several missles like a cruiser?

Another topic is subs, currently destroyers are way superior and more cost efficient than t2 subs making them not a preferred choice for someone intending to win. Why do sera have weak battleships and even weaker t3 subs, why dont t3 subs destroy t2 subs and destroyers??

Anyway no one really cares as we still have an idiotic janus bomber instead of the fixed one from pre august balance mod.

I guess we will just have to content with unranked games or being forced slowly into a balance version where whoever has influence on the guys with keys can changed the game until their standard build order and preferred game style gives a substantial advantage and they can win some games since the community feedback keeps getting ignored :)
Evildrew
Avatar-of-War
 
Posts: 248
Joined: 18 Sep 2015, 11:41
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 36 times
FAF User Name: Evildrew

Re: Balance patch 3684 Feedback Thread

Postby Sovietpride » 30 May 2017, 15:15

Evildrew wrote:I also dont like these mml changes. The reason cybran mml was designed so much better is because it balances out over the entire range of units. Cybran have inaccurate t1&t3 mobile arty. The t1 arty is of course the weakest of all races, low aoe means you have to be lucky to get a stun as well which has to be weighed. Cybran cant hold a turtle position because of weak pd and weak shield. Games are not balanced by looking at the same class and type of unit being equal with optical differences across races in how they operate. Games are balanced by rating units and trying to have the sum of each race be close to each other. T1 might be a luttle weaker for race A while race B is weaker on T2, this creates back and forth action.
On some maps of course with different design some units attributes may weigh more but this cannot be helped.


Tbh, i dont think you can really say their artillery is "weak" when the trade off is that their artillery is awesome vs units. When youre running around with medusa in the dozens the inaccuracy becomes a moot point when its raining EMP. Compared to fervor (aeon arty) - pants vs units, awesome vs single structures.

I also dont understand the mml changes. "up to parity with cybran" seems a bit of a weak argument. t2 is often a skippable offence anyway. that cybran had a better mml was due to their crappy defences (tickle turrets and cheap but weak shields), no?

Positives though: I quite like the experimental XP change. Less running around searching for vet to continue a rampage, more pulling back with it so it can heal with its significant regen. Dont know why mega cant get a higher base regen though.
Sovietpride
Avatar-of-War
 
Posts: 258
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 17:44
Has liked: 7 times
Been liked: 109 times
FAF User Name: Sovietpride

Re: Balance patch 3684 Feedback Thread

Postby JaggedAppliance » 30 May 2017, 16:52

To clear up a few things;

Yes it's intended that janus can't kill t1 pgens in one pass anymore.

The MML buffs are not supposed to, and don't, make all MMLs equal to cybran MMLs. Cybran MMLs are, and should be, the best. I recognise the concerns people have with the uef MML in particular.

About the satellite, I hope to improve it in the next patch so people can stop thinking seriously that ctrlking it is somehow a valid use for it.

Improving the tml of nuke subs is definitely something to be considered and investigated but I don't know if it will make it into the next patch.

I guess we will just have to content with unranked games or being forced slowly into a balance version where whoever has influence on the guys with keys can changed the game until their standard build order and preferred game style gives a substantial advantage and they can win some games since the community feedback keeps getting ignored :)

This is a nasty comment but at least I know you don't mean it. It would make no sense to even post if you actually believed what you wrote here.
"and remember, u are a noob, u don’t have any rights to disagree" - Destructor

My Youtube channel with casts > https://www.youtube.com/c/jaggedappliance
My Twitch > https://www.twitch.tv/jaggedappliance
JaggedAppliance
Councillor - Balance
 
Posts: 641
Joined: 08 Apr 2015, 14:45
Has liked: 734 times
Been liked: 313 times
FAF User Name: JaggedAppliance

Re: Balance patch 3684 Feedback Thread

Postby ZLO_RD » 30 May 2017, 17:09

Sovietpride wrote:I also dont understand the mml changes. "up to parity with cybran" seems a bit of a weak argument. t2 is often a skippable offence anyway. that cybran had a better mml was due to their crappy defences (tickle turrets and cheap but weak shields), no?

It was because aeon and sera mmls were too weak. think about it, cybran mmls fire 3x more missiles, and every missile spits into more missiles, they even break trought aeon TMD.
While aeon/sera fire once per 10 sec or so with 600 damage, same dps... cybran mmls makes TMD useless, while TMD makes aeon/sera mmls useless. It is not about cybran being too good, it is about aeon/sera mmls being too bad.
http://www.youtube.com/user/dimatularus
http://www.twitch.tv/zlo_rd
TA4Life: "At the very least we are not slaves to the UI"
User avatar
ZLO_RD
Supreme Commander
 
Posts: 2265
Joined: 27 Oct 2011, 13:57
Location: Russia, Tula
Has liked: 303 times
Been liked: 400 times
FAF User Name: ZLO

Re: Balance patch 3684 Feedback Thread

Postby Iszh » 30 May 2017, 17:14

The tml of nuke subs is used a lot isnt it? On setons you can see it often. Better make the rocket ship useful again since at the time the splash got nerfed from 5 to 2 it is with 4km range much worse than a nuke sub and has no use anymore. On setons people need to spam nuke subs for 10k masss since they get a 5km range tml and additional the ability to spam nukes. Rocket ship completely died.

8k mass -> 4km - 400dps - 2 splash - 16s reload - 15k hp over water ship
9k mass -> 5km - 200dps - 3splash - 10s reload - 4k hp submarine with ability to built nukes

Rocket ship can be killed easier it can be detected easier it has a very unlucky fire cycle to destroy things and low splash. in former times with 500 dps and 5 splash it was even useful in seabattles with groundfire and direct fire against shields and battleships.

Sorry just my comment on your nuke subs i dont think they need a buff. The changes of the patch are nice thanks and keep an eye on the t2 mml ;)
User avatar
Iszh
Evaluator
 
Posts: 827
Joined: 26 Apr 2012, 08:51
Has liked: 116 times
Been liked: 126 times
FAF User Name: Iszh

Re: Balance patch 3684 Feedback Thread

Postby Evildrew » 30 May 2017, 18:03

Iszh, t3 aoen (bs+torrent) are similar to the idea of uef t2 navy (destroyer+cruiser) shorter range on the primary cannon boats long range missiles on the other.
I just think that 1 missile every 16 s or so is no issue for tmd.
Zlo, tml have fire cycles of 2 sec cybran, 3 sec sera, 4sec aoen/uef. Aoen tml and mml missiles swerve and dont get hit every time by tml that is there feature. Sera and uef mml are vanilla just like sera t1 tank. On its own sera t1 tank seems weakest but that doesnt mean it needs changing. Uef and cybran dont have t1 hover, that also doesnt need fixing ;)
Sovietpride, t1 cybran arty has lowest dps by far and cannot be effective on its own merit. Havent seen a t2 cybran transport with arty been employed and that speaks for itself. This is why firebeetle were set to use 1 slot so dropping with cybran is an option. But this was made unviable because some people couldnt take the shame of being beetle snipped and determined that this enjoyable tactic needed to be nerft to the point of autolose with 2clamps used and auto OC and increased cost of t2 hq over the past 9 monyhs or so.

Changes are being made because someone has an idea and i dont like it, especially a chicken that is told to shoot at acu but only does with one gun because it has 180 degrees spread arms and is shooting at 2-3 targets even though you tell it to kill acu. It also flexes its arm 45 degree backwards and shoot at a target instead of turning, it flak shreds t1 bombers, all things it never used to do. This of course all while having hp and dps equivalent to a gc (at least in the past) and both dying in a 1on1 fight. Does this mean gc needs buff? Soak up planes maybe.
Anyway i am a little unhappy:'(
Evildrew
Avatar-of-War
 
Posts: 248
Joined: 18 Sep 2015, 11:41
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 36 times
FAF User Name: Evildrew

Re: Balance patch 3684 Feedback Thread

Postby Farmsletje » 30 May 2017, 18:09

Iszh wrote:The tml of nuke subs is used a lot isnt it? On setons you can see it often.

Don't know if this was supposed to be sarcastic, but no it's never used :P
Evildrew wrote:t1 cybran arty has lowest dps by far and cannot be effective on its own merit

Thats why you use it in combined armies? You stun the army with cheap medusa's and let your t2/t3 units deal the dmg.
Also i don't get your complaints about the chicken. Are you saying its OP or UP?
FtXCommando wrote:
need to give him some time to blossom into an aids flower
Farmsletje
Contributor
 
Posts: 1116
Joined: 14 Sep 2016, 18:38
Has liked: 383 times
Been liked: 452 times
FAF User Name: Farmsletje

Re: Balance patch 3684 Feedback Thread

Postby Evildrew » 30 May 2017, 20:18

Evildrew wrote:
t1 cybran arty has lowest dps by far and cannot be effective on its own merit

Thats why you use it in combined armies? You stun the army with cheap medusa's and let your t2/t3 units deal the dmg.
Also i don't get your complaints about the chicken. Are you saying its OP or UP?


-->
Tbh, i dont think you can really say their artillery is "weak" when the trade off is that their artillery is awesome vs units. When youre running around with medusa in the dozens the inaccuracy becomes a moot point when its raining EMP. Compared to fervor (aeon arty) - pants vs units, awesome vs single structures.


No mention of mixed troops, and if you have t1 arty by the dozens, where is the rest of the army coming from at minute 5 or when is this to be the case?
Lets listen to Yogi Bear's wisdom for this theoretical argument:
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."

A chicken that does not fire its full weaponry at a target you tell it because it wants to walk around like it doesnt care and wants to shoot left and right at the same time that is not cool...
--> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It shoots at unnatural angles...
Chicken Flak --> OP
Chicken never needed a buff but someone must have figured out how to do all these bad things and has got away with it...
Evildrew
Avatar-of-War
 
Posts: 248
Joined: 18 Sep 2015, 11:41
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 36 times
FAF User Name: Evildrew

PreviousNext

Return to Balance Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest