Buff cybran nerf UEF

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Buff cybran nerf UEF

Postby Iszh » 11 May 2017, 20:43

Hey while sitting in a lobbysim i needed something to do so i thought how to improve the world. Got no result but i got some balance ideas very general issues which i noticed in teamgames lately.

THe title is in this case no joke despite it sounds like. I noticed that cybran have in teamgames when there is a lot of t1 action with upraded acus not only a small problem, the paper acu is real. I played a lot random lately and so i got some impressions and ideas.

1. Problem Cybran has no option to stop a uef com with gun and nano if upgraded fast. Their only way to stop this is praying and rush t2 acu with t1 pd and t2. This does not work really well because of a nice combination of shit t2 pd and paper acu. If you are slightly behind thats some kind of death punishment while otherwise round uef can still resist more or less good vs cybran gun acu with tanks. Other factions have some options.

1. Solution Cybran has a back upgrade which is a nice tool but somewhat pointless. 350 mass and stealth i have never really soon that it helps anything. Same for the stealth upgrade. It is to expensive and does not help anything by the time you can afford it. Even to rush such a thing i ve seen only once in my life and it was just a joke. My proposal here is to move both upgrade in a better direction. The first upgrade should really help the cybran acu to resist a bit more fire and the second should be really an option to escape from death.

->Increase cost of the first stealth upgrade to 800 mass and equivalent e cost and add 3k hp without increased regen.
(Result should be a counterpart to uef guncom with new nano. Uef gets less hp boost but hp regen and cybran get more initial hp and stealth)

->Decrease mass and e cost of cybran stealh upgrade to a cost 2000 mass and 250,000 e. Increase the Cloak cost to 15,000e/s automatically switched off cloak
(cybran gets a hp increase of 15k hp without nano which offers a short time ability to hide from snipes if you got enough storages and e. Without cloak it costs like a shield upgrade of other factions but has much less hp and no regen and excluding ras)

2. Problem Uef seems to be some kind of overpower in teamgames. Reason is that percivals are extremely powerful maybe even to much and fatboy is very nice to win a lategame as well. In combination with the t1 guncom + nano ability early game uef is very often used in teamgames. I would say fatboy is ok to nerf this unit is difficult without making it very bad. But percival needs a mini nerf to be not that good vs bricks for example. As we have seen in zocks tries to nerf this unit it is very difficult as well without killing uef. If you touch range they lose vs monkey for example. I would like to see a nerf which is slightly reducing power vs all exp units and other factions t3 without killing this unit.

2. Solution The reason for their strength is the initial burst damage and higher dps. Both things which make them better vs big units than bricks. A simple nerf could be 3s reload time with 1200 damage -> still 400 dps.

->Loyalists 3100hp before 2 shots - Initial shot +4s =4s
->Loyalists 3100hp after 3 shots - initial shot + 3s + 3s = 6s
->Harbinger 5900hp before 4 shots - initial shot + 4s + 4s + 4s = 12s
->Harbinger 5900hp after 6shots - initial shot + 3s +3s + 3s + 3s +3s = 15s (shield regen will do the 110 hp within 12s to survive the 5th shot)
->Brick 9000hp before 6 shots - inital shot + 4s + 4s + 4s +4s +4s = 20s
->Brick 9000hp after 8 shots - initial shot + 3s +3s + 3s + 3s +3s +3s +3s = 21s
->Othuum 6700hp before 5 shots - initial shot + 4s +4s +4s +4s = 16s
->Othuum 6700hp after 6 shots - initial shot + 3s +3s +3s +3s +3s = 15s (mmhhmm ok shit nobody is perfect)
->Monkey 45khp before 29shots -> initial shot + 112s
->Monkey 45khp after 38 shots -> initial shot + 111s

Since the dps was not changed the difference for huge targets does not change on the first view. The difference is that the inital burst is decreased a lot but in a way that the unit is not shit. Vs exp units percival dies very fast and the initial damage is important, i have no clue if this effect could be to strong. It is still the faction difference enough. The effect vs t2 units stronger. For example enemy pillar tanks need 2 shots instead of 1 initial kill. Some people will tell this will kill the faction difference, but i beleave it is still enough difference ;)
I think especially the in increased army numbers the initial burst was rising to high so bricks died to fast. To reduce this wont harm to much.
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Re: Buff cybran nerf UEF

Postby Ithilis_Quo » 11 May 2017, 21:34

Problem:
Spoiler: show
Iszh wrote:Hey while sitting in a lobbysim i needed something to do so i thought how to improve the world. Got no result but i got some balance ideas very general issues which i noticed in teamgames lately.

THe title is in this case no joke despite it sounds like. I noticed that cybran have in teamgames when there is a lot of t1 action with upraded acus not only a small problem, the paper acu is real. I played a lot random lately and so i got some impressions and ideas.

1. Problem Cybran has no option to stop a uef com with gun and nano if upgraded fast. Their only way to stop this is praying and rush t2 acu with t1 pd and t2. This does not work really well because of a nice combination of shit t2 pd and paper acu. If you are slightly behind thats some kind of death punishment while otherwise round uef can still resist more or less good vs cybran gun acu with tanks. Other factions have some options.

1. Solution Cybran has a back upgrade which is a nice tool but somewhat pointless. 350 mass and stealth i have never really soon that it helps anything. Same for the stealth upgrade. It is to expensive and does not help anything by the time you can afford it. Even to rush such a thing i ve seen only once in my life and it was just a joke. My proposal here is to move both upgrade in a better direction. The first upgrade should really help the cybran acu to resist a bit more fire and the second should be really an option to escape from death.

->Increase cost of the first stealth upgrade to 800 mass and equivalent e cost and add 3k hp without increased regen.
(Result should be a counterpart to uef guncom with new nano. Uef gets less hp boost but hp regen and cybran get more initial hp and stealth)

->Decrease mass and e cost of cybran stealh upgrade to a cost 2000 mass and 250,000 e. Increase the Cloak cost to 15,000e/s automatically switched off cloak
(cybran gets a hp increase of 15k hp without nano which offers a short time ability to hide from snipes if you got enough storages and e. Without cloak it costs like a shield upgrade of other factions but has much less hp and no regen and excluding ras)

2. Problem Uef seems to be some kind of overpower in teamgames. Reason is that percivals are extremely powerful maybe even to much and fatboy is very nice to win a lategame as well. In combination with the t1 guncom + nano ability early game uef is very often used in teamgames. I would say fatboy is ok to nerf this unit is difficult without making it very bad. But percival needs a mini nerf to be not that good vs bricks for example. As we have seen in zocks tries to nerf this unit it is very difficult as well without killing uef. If you touch range they lose vs monkey for example. I would like to see a nerf which is slightly reducing power vs all exp units and other factions t3 without killing this unit.

2. Solution The reason for their strength is the initial burst damage and higher dps. Both things which make them better vs big units than bricks. A simple nerf could be 3s reload time with 1200 damage -> still 400 dps.

->Loyalists 3100hp before 2 shots - Initial shot +4s =4s
->Loyalists 3100hp after 3 shots - initial shot + 3s + 3s = 6s
->Harbinger 5900hp before 4 shots - initial shot + 4s + 4s + 4s = 12s
->Harbinger 5900hp after 6shots - initial shot + 3s +3s + 3s + 3s +3s = 15s (shield regen will do the 110 hp within 12s to survive the 5th shot)
->Brick 9000hp before 6 shots - inital shot + 4s + 4s + 4s +4s +4s = 20s
->Brick 9000hp after 8 shots - initial shot + 3s +3s + 3s + 3s +3s +3s +3s = 21s
->Othuum 6700hp before 5 shots - initial shot + 4s +4s +4s +4s = 16s
->Othuum 6700hp after 6 shots - initial shot + 3s +3s +3s +3s +3s = 15s (mmhhmm ok shit nobody is perfect)
->Monkey 45khp before 29shots -> initial shot + 112s
->Monkey 45khp after 38 shots -> initial shot + 111s

Since the dps was not changed the difference for huge targets does not change on the first view. The difference is that the inital burst is decreased a lot but in a way that the unit is not shit. Vs exp units percival dies very fast and the initial damage is important, i have no clue if this effect could be to strong. It is still the faction difference enough. The effect vs t2 units stronger. For example enemy pillar tanks need 2 shots instead of 1 initial kill. Some people will tell this will kill the faction difference, but i beleave it is still enough difference ;)
I think especially the in increased army numbers the initial burst was rising to high so bricks died to fast. To reduce this wont harm to much.


Solution:
Spoiler: show
play Equilibrium
"Fixed in Equilibrium" Washy
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Re: Buff cybran nerf UEF

Postby ZeRen » 11 May 2017, 22:19

Ithilis_Quo wrote:Problem:
Spoiler: show
Iszh wrote:Hey while sitting in a lobbysim i needed something to do so i thought how to improve the world. Got no result but i got some balance ideas very general issues which i noticed in teamgames lately.

THe title is in this case no joke despite it sounds like. I noticed that cybran have in teamgames when there is a lot of t1 action with upraded acus not only a small problem, the paper acu is real. I played a lot random lately and so i got some impressions and ideas.

1. Problem Cybran has no option to stop a uef com with gun and nano if upgraded fast. Their only way to stop this is praying and rush t2 acu with t1 pd and t2. This does not work really well because of a nice combination of shit t2 pd and paper acu. If you are slightly behind thats some kind of death punishment while otherwise round uef can still resist more or less good vs cybran gun acu with tanks. Other factions have some options.

1. Solution Cybran has a back upgrade which is a nice tool but somewhat pointless. 350 mass and stealth i have never really soon that it helps anything. Same for the stealth upgrade. It is to expensive and does not help anything by the time you can afford it. Even to rush such a thing i ve seen only once in my life and it was just a joke. My proposal here is to move both upgrade in a better direction. The first upgrade should really help the cybran acu to resist a bit more fire and the second should be really an option to escape from death.

->Increase cost of the first stealth upgrade to 800 mass and equivalent e cost and add 3k hp without increased regen.
(Result should be a counterpart to uef guncom with new nano. Uef gets less hp boost but hp regen and cybran get more initial hp and stealth)

->Decrease mass and e cost of cybran stealh upgrade to a cost 2000 mass and 250,000 e. Increase the Cloak cost to 15,000e/s automatically switched off cloak
(cybran gets a hp increase of 15k hp without nano which offers a short time ability to hide from snipes if you got enough storages and e. Without cloak it costs like a shield upgrade of other factions but has much less hp and no regen and excluding ras)

2. Problem Uef seems to be some kind of overpower in teamgames. Reason is that percivals are extremely powerful maybe even to much and fatboy is very nice to win a lategame as well. In combination with the t1 guncom + nano ability early game uef is very often used in teamgames. I would say fatboy is ok to nerf this unit is difficult without making it very bad. But percival needs a mini nerf to be not that good vs bricks for example. As we have seen in zocks tries to nerf this unit it is very difficult as well without killing uef. If you touch range they lose vs monkey for example. I would like to see a nerf which is slightly reducing power vs all exp units and other factions t3 without killing this unit.

2. Solution The reason for their strength is the initial burst damage and higher dps. Both things which make them better vs big units than bricks. A simple nerf could be 3s reload time with 1200 damage -> still 400 dps.

->Loyalists 3100hp before 2 shots - Initial shot +4s =4s
->Loyalists 3100hp after 3 shots - initial shot + 3s + 3s = 6s
->Harbinger 5900hp before 4 shots - initial shot + 4s + 4s + 4s = 12s
->Harbinger 5900hp after 6shots - initial shot + 3s +3s + 3s + 3s +3s = 15s (shield regen will do the 110 hp within 12s to survive the 5th shot)
->Brick 9000hp before 6 shots - inital shot + 4s + 4s + 4s +4s +4s = 20s
->Brick 9000hp after 8 shots - initial shot + 3s +3s + 3s + 3s +3s +3s +3s = 21s
->Othuum 6700hp before 5 shots - initial shot + 4s +4s +4s +4s = 16s
->Othuum 6700hp after 6 shots - initial shot + 3s +3s +3s +3s +3s = 15s (mmhhmm ok shit nobody is perfect)
->Monkey 45khp before 29shots -> initial shot + 112s
->Monkey 45khp after 38 shots -> initial shot + 111s

Since the dps was not changed the difference for huge targets does not change on the first view. The difference is that the inital burst is decreased a lot but in a way that the unit is not shit. Vs exp units percival dies very fast and the initial damage is important, i have no clue if this effect could be to strong. It is still the faction difference enough. The effect vs t2 units stronger. For example enemy pillar tanks need 2 shots instead of 1 initial kill. Some people will tell this will kill the faction difference, but i beleave it is still enough difference ;)
I think especially the in increased army numbers the initial burst was rising to high so bricks died to fast. To reduce this wont harm to much.


Solution:
Spoiler: show
play Equilibrium


then host some, kick Tokyto and speed to join and lets play, I will join if I am online
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Re: Buff cybran nerf UEF

Postby ZeRen » 11 May 2017, 22:26

Iszh wrote:->Decrease mass and e cost of cybran stealh upgrade to a cost 2000 mass and 250,000 e. Increase the Cloak cost to 15,000e/s automatically switched off cloak
(cybran gets a hp increase of 15k hp without nano which offers a short time ability to hide from snipes if you got enough storages and e. Without cloak it costs like a shield upgrade of other factions but has much less hp and no regen and excluding ras)


I was suggesting this two time, few months ago, as you see nothing changed

Cyb cant even get ED4 as tech3 ( that not even give any advantage just remove upgrade annoyance), so I am sure this never happen

and yea if you play againts UEF and he has nano and you didnt notice it is GG, you can get first def upgrade so fast...
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Re: Buff cybran nerf UEF

Postby Masyaka » 13 May 2017, 19:59

Fatboy win a lategame? Dont make me laugh. Its only for kiting exps.
10 t2 arty and a t3 sheild and you have your 30k mass gift.


Percy is op because faction diversity.
Just mix loyals with bricks and you'll own percys and GCs
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Re: Buff cybran nerf UEF

Postby FtXCommando » 13 May 2017, 20:10

You change percy to 1200 dmg per 4 sec and it automatically loses against harbs. UEF will have absolutely no possible way of beating competent aeon play at early T3 phase.

Fatboy isn't really a problem as it can be countered by t2 arty and is fairly easy to snipe with air unless it is babysat. The only time that UEF nano gun com is ridiculously op is when you are facing 2 cybrans on a map that is built around t1 rush like badlands/goodlands/fancylands. Cybran just has no counter to the upgrades + t1 spam.

The only real problem is that there is a 2-3 minute window where Cybran has no counter to UEF on certain teamgame maps. That's about it.
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Re: Buff cybran nerf UEF

Postby Morax » 14 May 2017, 05:17

If your opponent is down due to resources going to gun you should be able to be aggressive during that point in time and expose it. You should also have a larger army or some kind of advantage...

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Re: Buff cybran nerf UEF

Postby Farmsletje » 14 May 2017, 05:25

t2 mex
FtXCommando wrote:
need to give him some time to blossom into an aids flower
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Re: Buff cybran nerf UEF

Postby FtXCommando » 14 May 2017, 05:41

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Re: Buff cybran nerf UEF

Postby ZeRen » 14 May 2017, 08:10

Morax wrote:If your opponent is down due to resources going to gun you should be able to be aggressive during that point in time and expose it. You should also have a larger army or some kind of advantage...

Scouting saves lives.


so when other faction have disadvantage vs Cybran it has to balanced(like MMls now), but if Cybran has disadvantage vs other faction, Cybran has to be aggressive (no buff to steath upgrade)

great balancing....
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